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Post by gordon on Jul 28, 2009 18:12:41 GMT -8
What was the overheight capacity of the fast cats?
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Post by Scott on Jul 28, 2009 18:15:48 GMT -8
Nice. Can't wait to see the details. If they sold for a lot more than 20 million, it might make the Liberal government look bad. And they must be planning to use them, not scrap them, or else I doubt they'd be transporting them by heavy lift ships. Very interesting.
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Ferryman
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Post by Ferryman on Jul 28, 2009 18:17:32 GMT -8
Wow, it's about time those eye sore ships are on their way out. I'm glad they're being put to use again though.
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Post by WettCoast on Jul 28, 2009 18:43:01 GMT -8
Although $ amounts have not been released, it would appear that Mr. Washington has done well on this deal. Perhaps he has business acumen just slightly better than that of our dear Premier.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Jul 28, 2009 18:44:18 GMT -8
Good luck and Godspeed to the PACIFICAT EXPLORER, PACIFICAT DISCOVERY, and PACIFICAT VOYAGER. Best wishes on your new careers in your new location on this planet.
It's been a bit neat to see these interesting looking cats these years. Too bad they were floating ornaments and not used. Let's hope for better days for these vessels in their new intended services.
SAFE VOYAGE, PACIFICATS!
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Post by Dane on Jul 28, 2009 18:57:51 GMT -8
There electronics, among other things must be so far out of date - obviously life saving systems too. There were oil changes on the engines to keep them operable, but at least one also suffered from some pretty extreme leaks and mold.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Jul 28, 2009 19:07:01 GMT -8
This is going to be quite an exodus of retired ferries here in the Northwest. Seven or eight ferries. We are saying good bye to our Steel-Electrics ILLAHEE, KLICKITAT, NISQUALLY, and QUINAULT. You in BC are now about to say good bye to the Pacificats. Will the QUEEN OF ESQUIMALT (PRINCESS JACQUELINE) be on her way to her new location soon?
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Jul 28, 2009 19:34:12 GMT -8
Looking at the Abu Dhabi MAR website, it appears they are a "full-service" shipyard that both build and convert vessels into private yachts...
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Post by c15cat on Jul 28, 2009 19:48:00 GMT -8
They will probably be converted to yachts.
The biggest down fall with those ships is the rotten jet drives.
The Washington group is probably cheering for joy they sold the Fast Cats.
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Post by plansea on Jul 28, 2009 21:27:53 GMT -8
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Post by Scott on Jul 28, 2009 21:28:23 GMT -8
The Fastcats if they're turned into yachts will have the jet drives gutted and thrown in the bin as there are most likely better propulsion units out there, as wil the electronics (which date from the mid 1990's), lifesaving gear and I would guess alot of the insides would go too. The engines would be thrown in the garbage as they are older MTU models and a yacht would want engines with far more fuel efficient power. Pimp My Fastcats. The Washington Group? Of course they were cheering. They obviously made money on the sale Yeah, they did a good job advertising the ferries to a place where they have more money than they know what to do with. The luxury yacht idea seems to make more sense than using them as ferries. They'd probably want to replace the bow doors as well.
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Post by Balfour on Jul 28, 2009 21:41:52 GMT -8
Well I guess it's time I kept an eye on the Pacificats as a only live a few blocks up the hill from them...
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Jul 28, 2009 21:53:39 GMT -8
Thanks for those, plansea.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jul 28, 2009 22:18:44 GMT -8
Well, you have to give WMG credit. Patience pays off, apparently.
I was hoping that this shipyard might also do ferries as a sideline, but it looks as though yachts for the unimaginably wealthy is their sole stock in trade. It would be great to see the vessels sailing a ferry route in the Persian Gulf so we could see what might have been, but if this company can convert Dutch warships into yachts, I imagine the fastcats would work as well.
Paul, I guess you're lucky. If the 'cats had been sold to a company that was going to adapt them for their own ferry needs, I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one who felt justified in re-opening the debate over what happened or didn't happen here.
As it is, I'll be intrigued to see what they do with the huge vehicle decks in a mega-yacht.
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Jul 28, 2009 22:27:15 GMT -8
Simply amazing, it finally happened.
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Post by fairwinds on Jul 28, 2009 22:31:11 GMT -8
Fast ferries sold for $50 million, says union BY KATIE MERCER, THE PROVINCEJULY 28, 2009 11:01 PMCOMMENTS (7) STORYPHOTOS ( 1 )
Three Pacificat fast ferries sit idle in Richmond on Wednesday afternoon, July 4, 2001. Photograph by: Nick Procaylo, The Province The PacifiCat fast ferries, which sank a provincial government, are heading for new waters.
The Washington Marine Group, which bought the three ferries at a 2003 auction, has sold them to Abu Dhabi Mar, an offshore firm that plans to export them from Canada. The United Arab Emirates company is known for its yacht building and remodelling of older vessels.
Details of the transaction weren’t released Tuesday, but the BC Shipyard Workers Federation says the sale shows the BC Liberal government fleeced taxpayers.
“Today’s sale for what we believe is in excess of $50 million shows that the fast ferries had far more value than the BC Liberal government sold them for — meaning they shortchanged taxpayers to score political points,” said union president George MacPherson.
The three ferries will be transported from Vancouver harbour by heavy-lift, deep-sea vessels starting next month.
The custom-designed, high-speed catamaran ferries project was announced in 1994 as part of an $800-million, 10-year plan to rebuild the B.C. ferry fleet.
The pet project was led by the NDP’s then-premier Glen Clark, who tried to support the province’s ship-building industry by having local yards build the vessels.
It quickly became a ferry fiasco.
The program’s cost ballooned from an estimated $210 million at its inception to $454 million.
They proved to be too expensive to run in terms of high fuel costs, maintenance and staffing.
The purpose of the vessels was to provide speedy service between Nanaimo and Horseshoe Bay.
That was nixed when it was realized the vessels created a huge wake, which damaged waterfront wharves and property in coastal areas around terminals.
The vessels were also cramped, carried less passengers and didn’t allow trucks, buses or motorhomes.
When the B.C. Liberal government was elected they quickly rid themselves of the three ferries, selling them to the Marine Group for a mere $19.8 million for the lot.
Political commentator Norman Ruff said the “floating rust buckets” are partly to blame for the NDP’s downfall in the 90s.
“They’ve served a political purpose in three elections for the Liberals... it’s a part of the Liberals successful branding of the NDP,” the professor emeritus from the University of Victoria said.
“It’s haunted us as British Columbians. Now we can put this behind us and move on.”
© Copyright (c) The Province
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Post by Curtis on Jul 28, 2009 23:21:23 GMT -8
This is a shocker! Kind of came out of nowhere. WMG gaining 30 million from buying the Fastcats is a real kick in the crotch to the Liberals. The BC NDP has a new attack ad fact to add to their 2013 election campaign.
Oh well, farewell to one the biggest flops in BC Ferries (not to mention BC Government) history. My only regret is never getting aboard one. I had one chance 9 years ago when our family did a CirclePac trip. Though I guess the Spirits were a better idea after reading John's review of the Fastcats.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jul 29, 2009 6:31:26 GMT -8
Perhaps the Union can explain something to me. How did the Liberals screw BC if the ferries were sold by auction house to the highest bidder? Did the government secretly commit to kneecap anyone who bid higher than WMG so they could look bad when they finally sold? Was it part of a nefarious management bid to further ruin BC's ship building industry (part 2 of the plan was to be be terribly late and lose money on the Island Sky)? Should the government have retained the ferries and paid all those years of upkeep and moorage fees only to be roasted by the press for not selling them? My sarcasm rating is on par with the forest fire danger rating in BC. It might have something to do with some of preposterous statements made by CUPE and bungling of the Mayor in Toronto over the garbage strike. So I am even more primed than usual to rant. Good thing I have afternoon meetings to keep me busy . *Ok now that my steam level has lowered to normal operating range (for me that is), Abu Dhabi Mar is another example of members of the UAE diversifying their economy and building world class facilities and businesses. Many of these enterprises have major investment in, or outright ownship by members of the royal families. For example Emirates Airlines is owned by one of the royals and is heading towards becoming the worlds largest airline. The whole strategy is to turn next door Dubai into the worlds biggest hub for transportation and make visiting Dubai very easy for tourists. They have just/or just about to, become the worlds largest 777 operator, at around 78 aircraft. They as well have more A380's on order than any other airline, over 50 aircraft. Dubai actually has no oil but is a trading country. Next door Abu Dhabi has oil, but is also working to diversify their economy as well. Their airline Etihad is also expanding quickly, as luxurious as Emirates, but much more understated, and operates much more quietly in the industry. Abu Dhabi Mar has purchased the Nobiskrug Shipyard in Germany and co-owns CMN Shipyard in France. So it is not just a Johnny come lately althought the Abu Dhabi shipyard is brand new. Nobiskrug is a major yacht shipyard and CMN is a commercial and military shipyard. So it could be that the ferries are destined to become yacht conversions. However, I think it more likely that they will be used as ferries. BCinNJ some time ago posted a comment somewhere about some new fast ferries being purchased for use in the gulf (something about Egypt comes to mind). Remember that neighbouring Dubai has been building the Palm and World artificial Islands, and in addition has a number of needs for high speed ferries. The ferries would have to save a lot of time versus overland. One of the Emirates, not sure if it is Abu Dhabi or Dubai has photo radar so you can only drive at breakneck speed versus hypersonic speed. When you can drive at 100mph you have to be saving a lot of time on a ferry to make it work. Paul could indeed be correct in that it might link the UAE with another country like Saudi Arabia. There would be little wake issues with homeowners, cottagers, and marinas complaining. So the Cats could be run full out. One of the princes likes to modify his street cars to drive at Ferrari like speeds, so maybe he will do some mods to the Cats to fly even faster . I have a friend from Abu Dhabi, who works for the royal family and I tease him often about Arab driving at the speed of light.
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Post by gordon on Jul 29, 2009 7:34:43 GMT -8
According to an article on "The Province ' Website The Fast Cats did not carry Trucks Buses or Motorhomes. This doesn't make much sense the 2nd busiest route having no overheight capacity.
Route #30 probably carries the majority of the overheight\oversize Nanaimo traffic now.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 29, 2009 7:58:18 GMT -8
According to an article on "The Province ' Website The Fast Cats did not carry Trucks Buses or Motorhomes. This doesn't make much sense the 2nd busiest route having no overheight capacity. Route #30 probably carries the majority of the overheight\oversize Nanaimo traffic now. Remember that the FastCats where implemented at the same time that Duke Point was opened. The plan was to divert all overheight trucks/buses/RVs to Duke Point, and get them away from Departure Bay area. As soon as they actually started doing that, the users freaked and the ferry company caved. ================== I'm still trying to figure out why a company in a wealthy place like the United Arab Emerites would pay $50million for 10 year old ships that have been idle for most of the 10 years. What else might be part of the deal? Is WMG going to later sell barges to that company for a below-market price, to even out this deal? Or is WMG going to be promising to not do something? (ie. is part of the $50million intended to compensate WMG in order to keep WMG from bidding or competing against some Persian Gulf interests?). Just wondering about the possibilities.
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Jul 29, 2009 8:23:50 GMT -8
Flugel, one thing comes to mind; recycling. They could easily build new ships, but maybe for some freak reason the Fastcats are the type of ship they are looking for and they would like to take a greener approach. (They are going to get a lot of green when they go inside on of these ships.) They may be 10 years old and have been sitting but after a good scraping and a coat of hull paint, structurally the ships should be almost brand new.
If you think about it it probably wouldn't cost more than a Queen of New Westminster MLU to get each ship in tip top shape, maybe a new drive system would have to be added on top of that price. Labour is probably much cheaper in the UAE, so that could bring down the refit costs.
At least that's the theory I'm going on.
What would I do with one: -I'd replace the drive system with something cool, maybe turbine RAD's. -As for the car decks I'd convert the UCD into staterooms and then the MCD in to toy storage and a gymnasium. -I'd defiantly keep the interior balcony, but would turf all the finishes and completely redesign the interior for people over 5' tall.
Cheers,
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jul 29, 2009 8:54:46 GMT -8
Remember that the FastCats where implemented at the same time that Duke Point was opened. The plan was to divert all overheight trucks/buses/RVs to Duke Point, and get them away from Departure Bay area. As soon as they actually started doing that, the users freaked and the ferry company caved. ================== I'm still trying to figure out why a company in a wealthy place like the United Arab Emerites would pay $50million for 10 year old ships that have been idle for most of the 10 years. What else might be part of the deal? Is WMG going to later sell barges to that company for a below-market price, to even out this deal? Or is WMG going to be promising to not do something? (ie. is part of the $50million intended to compensate WMG in order to keep WMG from bidding or competing against some Persian Gulf interests?). Just wondering about the possibilities. Flugel, it's most likey they'll be reconfigured as yachts. The shipyard there had bought a Dutch frigate and turned it into a yacht. I doubt there would be anything WMG would be prevented from doing as it would be unlikely that a Northeastern Pacific concern would be expanding into a Persian Gulf market. It would make more economic sense for a larger shipyard from Asia or Greece to do that. There most likely wouldn't be any barge sales as it would be expensive to tow a standard BC coast barge to Abu Dhabi. WMG is not a big player in the shipyard business other than what Vancouver Shipyards and Victoria Shipyards does, compared to the worldwide scheme of things. In fact once again, for those who keep complaining about new ships being built here, Seaspan recently commissioned a new tug which was built in Tacoma Washington. She went into service a few weeks ago and plies the waters of Vancouver Harbour. So WMG can't even make the effort to tool their shipyards to build larger tugs for their own operations here. If you refresh my previous post and skip past the rant you will see some background on Abu Dhabi Mar and they are much more than just a yacht converter when you look at their affiliated yards.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 29, 2009 9:54:53 GMT -8
True, but the fact that WMG would be selling these cans and part of that deal would be a supposed prevention of WMG into that part of the world is a bit of a stretch. My intent was to speculate on why the price was so high. My speculated ideas of "why" were just vague ideas, but I think there must be a story about why the price was so high (compared to the 2001 auction price), and we'll likely never learn of the issues and bargainings that set this recent price. But it does make me wonder.... I just recently read the memoirs of Mr. Arthur McLaren of Allied Shipbuilders (part of the Ships of Steel book). He was quite candid in explaining reasons for various business deals and negotiations, both good and bad outcomes. I wonder if in 30 years we'll be reading the stories of Dennis Washington? Likely not.... Again, all I'm doing is wondering out-loud about what may have driven up the price.
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Jul 29, 2009 10:05:39 GMT -8
Maybe that price includes delivery? Maybe WMG just waited for the price they wanted, unlike the government. They already owned the docks so it cost them nothing to store them for so long.
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Post by Dane on Jul 29, 2009 10:33:31 GMT -8
There's only a $30m difference ($10m per boat) between what WMG bought them for and the $50m they got for them, which isn't much. That's an increase in sale value of 150%. That is much, in any measure.
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