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Post by Mike C on Jul 29, 2009 10:41:29 GMT -8
There's only a $30m difference ($10m per boat) between what WMG bought them for and the $50m they got for them, which isn't much. That's an increase in sale value of 150%. That is much, in any measure. I'm with Dane on this one. The BC Liberals sold them for far less their value, and that is a fact. An increase of 150% cannot be justified as a small one.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jul 29, 2009 12:33:06 GMT -8
The commercial value of the Cats is down to two main things. Firstly replacement time for newbuilds. Refurbing and refitting the Cats has to be significantly quicker than placing an order for three new ferries. Austral now has the new littoral ships they are working on and the other fast ferry builders seem to be quite busy. Secondly the cost of newbuilds has to be significantly higher than the purchase price of the CATS plus whatever mods have to be made. On the second point the Spirit of Ontario went for around $29 million if my memory serves me right. It was used and had a history of problems with its MTU engines. So I don't know if anyone has an idea of what a new INCAT, or Austral ferry costs. Someone may know what the Cats for Hawaii cost. Maybe our resident Yacht expert will wade in because if I remember correctly he will be in Victoria for a while. But looking at the yacht conversion industry I don't know of a single large newer ferry that has been converted into a yacht. The Abu Dhabi yard used hulls from military vessels. Large ocean going tugs, military, ice breakers, cruise ships, research vessels (one particular ugly one) etc. have all been used for conversion. Christina, of Aristotle Onassis fame, is probably the most famous, followed by Alexander, loaned on occasion to the Prince of Wales. By their very nature the huge hull section where the vehicle decks are located would make ferries not as suitable for conversion. The majority of yachts (even high speed ones) make use of extensive deck space for enjoyment and the cats have very little of that. One possible use for one of the ferries would be for a support ship similar to what Golden Shadow is to Golden Odyssey. Golden Odyssey is a small yacht compared to some of the royal arab yachts. yachts.monacoeye.com/yachtsbysize/pages/goldenodyssey02.html The large car decks and doors would make ok crew accomodations as windows aren't as necessary, toy storage, vehicle transport, submarine launching, a dive centre, and large supplies stores. All which is often present for large yachts. But I don't see three being necessary unless three very large middle east royal yachts are signed up for them. My biggest question is what the sea rating is for these CATS as compared to other CATS that are used for crossing rough bodies of water. I know the Hawaii CATS were particularly designed for rough water.
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Post by hullnumbers on Jul 29, 2009 12:41:18 GMT -8
Heres a news article from the Times Colonist www.timescolonist.com/sports/2010wintergames/starred+fast+ferries+sold+overseas+buyer/1839698/story.htmlB.C.'s Ill-starred fast ferries sold to overseas buyer By Derrick Penner, Canwest News ServiceJuly 29, 2009 B.C. Ferries built the three fast ferries for $454 million; Washington Marine Group bought them for $19.8 million. The PacifiCat fast ferries, the products of one of British Columbia's most controversial mega-projects, have been sold to an offshore buyer that plans to export them. The Washington Marine Group, which bought the aluminum catamaran-style ferries at auction in March 2003, said yesterday that it has sold the three vessels to a firm called Abu Dhabi Mar, which plans to export them from Canada. The ships, built between 1999 and 2000, were decommissioned and mothballed by the provincial government in 2001. Washington Marine Group of Companies cited confidentiality and released no terms of the deal in its press release. Abu Dhabi MAR's website says the company is a builder of huge yachts, based in the United Arab Emirates. Its most recent achievements appear to be the conversion of two Dutch-built warships into two of the largest super-yachts ever built, 139.5 and 133.5 metres in length. Abu Dhabi MAR could not be reached for comment. The Washington Marine Group acquired the fast ferries, built for B.C. Ferries at a cost of $454 million in the late 1990s, for $19.8 million in 2003. The PacifiCats were commissioned by then NDP premier Glen Clark in a project designed to reinvigorate the B.C. shipbuilding industry. However, construction of the complex vessels ran over budget and over schedule, to the constant criticism of the then Opposition party of Gordon Campbell, now the Liberal premier. Once in service, the PacifiCats were plagued by operational problems, from high-fuel consumption to a large wake that washed dangerously against the shore as they docked, forcing them to sail in at speeds below optimum levels. Washington Marine Group CEO Steve Frasher once told Canwest News Service that its plan in purchasing the vessels was to make a quick flip. Over the years, ideas for reinventing the ferries included using them as high-speed barges, military-transport vessels and as a temporary service to move people from Vancouver to Squamish during the 2010 Winter Olympics. In 2005, Washington Marine Group also explored the possibility of putting the PacifiCats back in service on their original run between Horseshoe Bay and Nanaimo. Washington Marine Group said the ferries will be transported using heavy-lift, deep-sea vessels with the first slated to depart Vancouver next month. © Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist
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Post by Scott on Jul 29, 2009 16:37:37 GMT -8
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jul 30, 2009 6:13:07 GMT -8
Wow.! Here is a quiz for you all. Which esteemed member of this forum has been quoted nationally from sea to shining sea while you BC folks still slumber in your beds? A hint is, you can also refer to him with another f word that ends in r. Not the word some of you naughty ones are thinking of either, but seven letters and rhymes with flounder. I know this will make some of your eyes bleed to read this publication, but here is the link and you can find out for yourselves. www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1842136Well done J___ way to celebrate the 30th big time by trumping everyone and going coastal to coastal.
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Post by Scott on Jul 30, 2009 16:06:48 GMT -8
Wow, that PacifiCat webpage is still up eh?
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Post by c15cat on Jul 30, 2009 19:35:17 GMT -8
I don`t know why the NDP gov`t though building aluminum vessels that size would be a good idea.
A aluminum vessel that size doesn`t work well. They were constantly welding up cracks when BCF was using them.
You couldn`t haul any heavy trucks in them or the aluminum would distort.
The Washington Group probably sold the ferries off to get some money. Things are pretty slow in the towboat industry right now with forestry down etc. Not much going on.
I imagine the Washington group looked at ways of making the fast cats into barges.
The price of aluminum hasn`t gone down its still pretty high.
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Neil
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Posts: 7,185
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Post by Neil on Jul 30, 2009 19:49:51 GMT -8
I don`t know why the NDP gov`t though building aluminum vessels that size would be a good idea. A aluminum vessel that size doesn`t work well. They were constantly welding up cracks when BCF was using them. You couldn`t haul any heavy trucks in them or the aluminum would distort. Sorry, but you're not correct. The technology of building large ferries out of aluminum was proven long ago. See Incat Australia. The experience here was determined by factors other than the inherent value of building out of aluminum.
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Post by WettCoast on Jul 30, 2009 20:04:56 GMT -8
The price of aluminum hasn`t gone down its still pretty high. Your info is way off base. The price of aluminum fell by ~66% between 1 July 2008 & 1 Jan 2009. The price remains less than half of what it was a year ago. Like most commodities it was hit and hit hard.
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
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Post by Nick on Jul 30, 2009 20:09:53 GMT -8
Aluminum is becoming a very popular ship building material. WSF's new Island Home style ship has a superstructure made from aluminum, as as does the Navy's new Orca class training vessels. The only issue with aluminum construction is that it doesn't handle fatigue very well, but with a decent design, that's not a problem.
The Pacificats were never designed to carry trucks, and they never did, so the fact that the deck would flex is irrelevant.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Jul 30, 2009 21:07:51 GMT -8
But another problem is that steel and aluminum don't go together well solidly as steel to steel and aluminum to aluminum when joined so I wonder what happens? Is there some intermediary material embedded? I don't know a lot about this subject, and I'm sure others will be able to add more, however, from what I understand, most of the time a technique called "explosion welding" is used to create billets of steel and aluminum layered on each other. Explosion welding is when two pieces of metal, which under normal circumstances would not be able to be welded together, are accelerated towards each other at very high speeds. The high impact has enough energy to "plasticize" the metals and fuse them together. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosion_weldingThe billets can then be used as a bridge between the aluminum in the superstructure to the steel in the hull. Anybody want to add more?... or confirm/disprove my thoughts above?
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Post by northwesterner on Jul 31, 2009 15:25:57 GMT -8
Well, they're finally out of here.
There's been a lot of trashing the FastCat concept in this thread. I think the execution was poor, but the concept and plan was sound.
In the early/mid 90s BCFerries wanted to reduce congestion at Departure Bay. They also needed to upgrade their aging fleet. Rather than build bigger ferries for route 2, running at the same frequency, leaving people to sit for hours at the undersized parking lots at Departure Bay and Horseshoe Bay.
How to solve this? Run faster ferries more frequently, and transfer the trucks and commercial traffic to Route 30, and open a new terminal at the south end of Nanaimo to handle that traffic.
Again, the concept was sound. More frequent ferries that actually carry their rated load in cars (remember, no trucks) on the busy route 2 would be more convenient for the customers. The quicker trip would be an added perk.
But when it finally came time to run the damn things, BCF bent to the commercial vehicles who didn't want to get kicked off of route 2. The ferries weren't as fast as advertised. They threw off a ton of wake. If you listened to vessel traffic control when they were operating (as I did, one summer as a 15 year old ferry foamer, on vacation with my parents on the family boat) they were constantly receiving minimum wash advisories from traffic control. It seems they threw such a wake that they'd knock logs right out of the big log tows that are a constant presence in Georgia Strait.
The worst part about them was the passenger cabins. The interiors were nicely done, fun colors, looked great (especially compared to the very-dated interiors on the C-Class at the time). But the benches were hard as a rock, there weren't enough seats, and there was virtually no outside deck. John H's assessment of the outside deck being "a small tennis court" is being very generous. It was smaller than that, I'm sure.
I actually rode one in 1999. I wondered how the interior could be so uncomfortable. None of the bureaucrats involved in the build process had enough pride in the product to say, stop, this isn't right. When they finally were pulled about a year and a half later, I wasn't surprised. They were awful to be a passenger on. How could BCF try and make them work when they were so miserable?
This was an opportunity for BCF and BC's shipyards to shine. But the build process (as documented previously on this list) got so mucked up, the result came out flawed and unloved. And there they sat, tied to the north shore, for years, a reminder of a good idea gone bad.
Meanwhile, Duke Point sits, underutilized, seeing one ferry every couple of hours. Trucks continue to sail on route 2, taking valuable car spaces on busy summer weekends. Backups still continue at Departure Bay during peak travel times. And the trip between the mainland and Vancouver Island still takes the same amount of time it took forty years ago.
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Post by oceaneer77 on Jul 31, 2009 17:34:29 GMT -8
Wow the board is on fire with this thread!! So i will put my 2 cents in on the yacht conversion.. I know of 4 parties that have thought of this with these vessels and 2 that have done a pretty detailed study. The ships are just not suitable for this use as the hull tunnel is just to close the the water for any open water usage. Unless they plan to never go to sea with the ships, they will not be yachts. But then they may do a rather huge slice and dice. cut the vessels in three (hulls and tunnel) and modify the shape for a taller tunnel. This is possible but i really dont think so as we have lots of unused tonnage available for conversions at pretty low prices now that will not require this level of drastic reconstruction. Or it is posible that they could use them for just gulf based yachts.. but at that size the market for such a thing would be next to non existant. As for the shadow boat concept.. no the hull tunnel still keeps this out of the question. So as far as i can see no reason exists to make a yacht our of the ferries. My guess would be they stay ferries. I think that in the current market and fuel prices fast cat demand is shrinking.. but slow cats could be used. This would be a repower to a more efficent drive system (possible diesel electric) and keep the speed down to a convention ship but have a huge decrease in fuel costs. I would love to be wrong on the yacht conversion.. but just cant find a good side to the argument. As for other yacht conversions.. the QPR would make a great shadow boat.. she is just crying convert me!! I can just imagine the sick tenders we could have on the car deck.. Thats my 2 cents.. but i will do some digging about the shipyard
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Aug 1, 2009 20:38:40 GMT -8
Someone has posted the majority of the Building of Pacificat 1000 on Youtube.
It is seperated into six parts...
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 1, 2009 21:52:10 GMT -8
Someone has posted the majority of the Building of Pacificat 1000 on Youtube. Thanks Scott. I like the part where Glen Clark talks about how the C-Class ferries were stretched... ;D
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Post by Ferryman on Aug 1, 2009 23:43:11 GMT -8
Thanks for finding that, Scott.
I really enjoyed watching all of those clips. While watching those videos, it felt as if that had all happened yesterday. But sadly, that was over 10 years ago.
I like Trafford Taylors remarks during the first seatrial of the Pacificat Explorer..."We were towed out of the dock, because we're about 20 feet from the beach, and I wouldn't want to clutch and end up on the beach, thus ending my career as a sailor". I love that type of professionalism with Captains, who prove they know what they're doing, and have a number of "what ifs" layed out in their mind.
I think I would have prefered to see the Cats stay in BC, to at least put on some competition with BC Ferries. But I know it's obviously not financially viable these days. Regardless, I'm happy that they will finally (hopefully) recieve some very much needed TLC, since they've been seriously neglected since 2003.
One other thing to point out that caught my eye:
They show the Alberni pulling into Duke Point finishing a 180 degree turn near the end of the last video. I remember that summer all to well, and can remember listening over the VHF radio I used to have, the night the Alberni decided to spit out some pistons in one of the engines. It would take months to recieve parts to repair the damage, and they really needed her in service, so they ran her as a single ender that summer. The #2 end (Tsawwassen end) was considered to be the bow. Quite different to hear those 3 Airchime horns sounding the 3 quick blasts, signalling the ship is sailing astern out of Tsawwassen.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Aug 2, 2009 2:10:53 GMT -8
Quite an interesting story on the QUEEN OF ALBERNI.
If you remember, the VANCOUVER ISLAND PRINCESS was fitted with those same whistles the QUEEN OF OAK BAY has. A minor chord set. We here in Seattle heard the three short blasts from this ship each day when she used Pier 69 in 1987 and 1988. A side door was installed on her port side as she did her work off her side at that dock here (she used her stern at Ogden Point all her short career on the Seattle run). Beginning in 1989, she used Pier 48 and used her stern there and all traffic would do a U-turn at her bow, just like what she did on the Vancouver run. From then on, we heard the usual one long blast from this stern loader.
As a bonus for us whistle lovers here in Seattle, BCSS had a fanfare approach signal of one long, two short, and an encore long blast.
Nice mention of the ALBERNI using three short blasts on her whistles during her brief "single-ended" operation.
Now, back to the gossiping of the departing Pacificats...
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 2, 2009 6:48:54 GMT -8
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Post by bcferryfan87 on Aug 2, 2009 21:47:37 GMT -8
Although $ amounts have not been released, it would appear that Mr. Washington has done well on this deal. Perhaps he has business acumen just slightly better than that of our dear Premier. I find the above comment about business acumen interesting. If the ships had been bought by Washington Marine - say this year, and then resold this year, it might indicate that Washington was able to quickly turn these around and thus question Campbell's business acumen. Considering it has been several years since the ships went from the Gov't to Washington Marine, and now sold to whomever, I don't see the sense in the comment about Campbell. It's not like they made a quick sale!
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Aug 3, 2009 9:10:51 GMT -8
Although $ amounts have not been released, it would appear that Mr. Washington has done well on this deal. Perhaps he has business acumen just slightly better than that of our dear Premier. I find the above comment about business acumen interesting. If the ships had been bought by Washington Marine - say this year, and then resold this year, it might indicate that Washington was able to quickly turn these around and thus question Campbell's business acumen. Considering it has been several years since the ships went from the Gov't to Washington Marine, and now sold to whomever, I don't see the sense in the comment about Campbell. It's not like they made a quick sale! Part of good business sense is having the patience to wait and sell something at the right time and still make a profit. Something Gordon Campbell could learn with his obsession with one shot deals and one time payments, not thinking of how anything might be made more profitable in the long run. It may not be business acumen, but Washington sure has impeccable luck.
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Post by Dane on Aug 4, 2009 11:09:09 GMT -8
Someone has posted the majority of the Building of Pacificat 1000 on Youtube. Thanks Scott. I like the part where Glen Clark talks about how the C-Class ferries were stretched... ;D I was there when he said that! And I yelled that he was wrong. I was like 12.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 6, 2009 11:47:24 GMT -8
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Post by gordon on Aug 6, 2009 12:09:36 GMT -8
Very interesting article. Was Deas Pacific ever intended to be a full blown ship yard of was it supposed to a re fit & repair facility for B.C. Ferries?
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,185
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Post by Neil on Aug 6, 2009 13:18:42 GMT -8
Can't say I disagree with one word of Ms. Montgomery's article, in regard to both the fastcat experience, and the current ship building situation. To those who want to shut down conversation on these issues- tough. This stuff still matters, in a historical sense, and in regard to our present economy.
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Post by Queen of Nanaimo Teen on Aug 6, 2009 14:06:42 GMT -8
I thought that her article was just awesome. That really stirs a lot of emotions in me (cheesy, I know), but it's good to know the media understands all aspects about the fast ferries.
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