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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 4, 2009 12:18:15 GMT -8
Here's a thread to move our discussion into, regarding the proposed cable-ferry route for Denman Island.
I'll move the old comments from Neil, myself & Paul over here, later tonight.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 4, 2009 12:19:13 GMT -8
This isn't a news article, but it's not a service notice either... A while ago, somebody mentioned something about BCF considering a cable ferry service for the Buckley Bay - Denman route. It's official, BCF is holding a public consultation meeting on August 20 to discuss the option.
BC FERRIES HOSTS OPEN HOUSE AND PUBLIC MEETING ON PROPOSED CABLE FERRY ALTERNATIVE
VICTORIA – BC Ferries is hosting an open house and public meeting on Thursday, August 20, on Denman Island to notify the public that the company is reviewing the feasibility of operating a cable ferry between Buckley Bay on Vancouver Island and Denman Island.
BC Ferries is constantly looking for ways to reduce its capital and operating costs while continuing to provide a safe and reliable ferry service. The company is researching the viability of a cable ferry on the Buckley Bay – Denman Island route due to the short distance of the crossing and the relatively sheltered waters in Baynes Sound.
In order to consult with the users of the Buckley Bay – Denman Island ferry service, BC Ferries is hosting an open house and public meeting to share information with members of the public.
Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009 Time: 1:30 pm – 3:00 pm - Open House 3:00 pm – 4:00 pm – Public Meeting Location: Seniors Hall Auditorium, Denman Island
Representatives from BC Ferries will be on hand to discuss the cable ferry concept. Everyone is welcome to attend the session.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 4, 2009 12:21:55 GMT -8
This isn't a news article, but it's not a service notice either... A while ago, somebody mentioned something about BCF considering a cable ferry service for the Buckley Bay - Denman route. It's official, BCF is holding a public consultation meeting on August 20 to discuss the option. BC FERRIES HOSTS OPEN HOUSE AND PUBLIC MEETING ON PROPOSED CABLE FERRY ALTERNATIVE VICTORIA – BC Ferries is hosting an open house and public meeting on Thursday, August 20, on Denman Island to notify the public that the company is reviewing the feasibility of operating a cable ferry between Buckley Bay on Vancouver Island and Denman Island. BC Ferries is constantly looking for ways to reduce its capital and operating costs while continuing to provide a safe and reliable ferry service. The company is researching the viability of a cable ferry on the Buckley Bay – Denman Island route due to the short distance of the crossing and the relatively sheltered waters in Baynes Sound. Well now, a cable ferry would definitely be an interesting and different type of operation for the coast. But before they start, changing the nature of the route operation might already require some capital costs they are not considering. For one, they would need a new vessel or somehow retrofit one of the existing ones, a K-barge no doubt with the necessary equipment to be guided by cables. I'm curious also what kind of traffic the channel sees, as the cables may pose a hazard if they are close enough to the surface.
They would also likely need to build new ramps for a cable ferry operation because the berths on both sides have curved wooden piers and it is difficult for cable ferries to turn corners because they are guided by the cables, so they need to run in a pretty much straight line. So, that's a new or modified vessel and two new berthing structures right off the bat, as well as the necessary infrastructure for the cables, which are all significant capital costs, so I wonder if they would really be able to make that up in savings over the long run.
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Post by Mike C on Aug 4, 2009 13:01:53 GMT -8
Are they nuts?
Maybe I'm just a little stupid, but have they considered anything at all? It's not just a little rope that you hang from Buckley Bay to Denman West. Like Mill Bay said, this would require extensive vessel and terminal upgrades.
But also you must consider the marine traffic that uses the area and how this would affect them. Nearby Union and Fanny Bays cause marine traffic on that stretch of water (help me out with some names). This would cause them to find alternative ways, not that it's hard, just inconvenient.
Also, what would be the maintenance options for the vessel? How would this vessel tend to annual refits? Service would be canceled on the run for a period of time while they towed the vessel to Deas Pacific Marine.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Aug 4, 2009 13:28:19 GMT -8
Are they nuts? Maybe I'm just a little stupid, but have they considered anything at all? It's not just a little rope that you hang from Buckley Bay to Denman West. Like Mill Bay said, this would require extensive vessel and terminal upgrades. But also you must consider the marine traffic that uses the area and how this would affect them. Nearby Union and Fanny Bays cause marine traffic on that stretch of water (help me out with some names). This would cause them to find alternative ways, not that it's hard, just inconvenient. Also, what would be the maintenance options for the vessel? How would this vessel tend to annual refits? Service would be canceled on the run for a period of time while they towed the vessel to Deas Pacific Marine. Interesting discussion! I would string a very high cable across the ferry line and make it strong enough to carry electrical wiring from the land to the ferry, as well as the support lines to the floating ferry as well. The ferry would have electric drive motors. I would equip this with a fuel-based piston electric generator for backup purposes and for traveling to and from Deas. As for a maintenance replacement, either have another cable-electric on hand at this crossing or use a conventional ferry. My guess... One thought comes up on many minds: Would a lightning bolt snap the cable?
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Post by Dane on Aug 4, 2009 13:29:05 GMT -8
I am most curious about the marine traffic in the area. The proposal would suggest there's essentially none, or at least not much with a deep hull. Neil, any observations?
I imagine BCF is pretty well acquainted with the capital costs - what's the status of the terminals now? If upgrades/changes are required anyways in the short to medium term then it's a relatively small issue.
It's hard to comment beyond that being so unfamiliar with the route (did it twice, round trips both times).
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 4, 2009 14:18:02 GMT -8
Another intriguing note from the report, that I've never seen before, was that BC Ferries either was, or is, considering a cable ferry option for Denman Island. That sounds pretty bizarre. I'm thinking that the local boaters in Baynes Sound and near Chrome Island wouldn't want cables in their way. It would be the effect of closing-off access through the sound.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 4, 2009 14:20:32 GMT -8
The cable ferry concept across Baynes Sound also isn't all that practical. It would require an overhead cable sorts set to masts and there would have to be at least a 40' clearance in the middle (if not, what the minimum is to clear navigable waters). An under the surface cable wouldn't work owing to the topgraphy of the bottom (unlike a river, the bottom is not a flat u shape). It is up to 40 to 50 fathoms (240 to 300 feet deep) in places even along the route of the existing Denman ferry.
Chrome Island is SE of Baynes Sound marking its enterance. In terms of distance it is short from Deep Bay to Repulse Point and with the shallow water on the Deep bay end, it may be possible to string an overhead cable, but it may be impractal.
"Consider" is not the same actually doing. Someone was probably throwing out a concept, which isn't all that unusual.
Wouldn't get worked up about it.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 4, 2009 16:00:29 GMT -8
I know nothing about cable ferries, but I find it really hard to believe that BC Ferries would be going to the public without first having a very good idea as to addressing some of the basic concerns brought up here. This is not an organization that blindly throws money around, aside from remuneration for executives, of course. I think they probably have some idea about how to turn a cable ferry into the shiny new dock they've installed at Buckley Bay.
As for the amount of traffic in Baynes Sound, I've taken the ferry countless times in the last 25 years, and there's usually very little in the area.
There's a chance I might be able to attend the meeting on Denman later this month. This is an intriguing proposal.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Aug 4, 2009 17:17:53 GMT -8
At the very least, the notion of having an overhead cable is a little flawed. Having a cable under the surface does not mean it has to lying all the way down on the bottom, 200 feet down. For one thing, that would waste the operation, since the ferry would have to spend all it's time reeling in all that cable. No, the cable would most likely be an underwater one, but suspended just below the surface, so that the winches don't burn out reeling in huge lengths of cable while the ferry essentially stands still. The cable has to be close enough to the surface that the winch motors can work along it, and also to ensure that the correct amount of tension is kept for the winches to work along the cable. If it were lying completely slack at the bottom, it would not work at all, so it would need to be close to the surface, but with the right type and length of cable it could be set up so that it hangs far enough below the surface to clear marine traffic once the ferry has passed along the cable.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 4, 2009 17:48:26 GMT -8
We have an inland cable ferry operating in BC. Most of you who are familiar with our main inland ferries will know about the Needles, which crosses the Arrow Lakes at the narrows between the upper & lower lakes. It is a link on Hwy 6 between Vernon & Nelson.
This ferry has, I recall, 3 cables - 2 for guidance, 1 for propulsion. The cables run under water. The distance is short (maybe a quarter or less than the distance across to Denman Island from Buckley Bay. The bottom there is, I am fairly certain, shallow with a gentle convex curve. I believe the ferry has a motor which pulls on the cable. However, it may be that the motor(s) is/are on shore and pull the cable which drags the ferry along for the ride.
I believe that the arrow Lakes has some marine traffic moving up & down the lakes, crossing over the cables. The volume of traffic would be low, probably much less than that in the channel between Denman & Vancouver Island.
Another point - under water cables on the Arrow Lakes should last for quite a few years. But how long would such last submerged in salt water? Perhaps some sort of alloyed metal would do the trick in salt water?
There used to be a conventional ferry there. It was also named the Needles. Following introduction of the cable ferry (circa 1980) the Needles was moved north, renamed the Shelter Bay, and now supplements service provided by the Galena on Hwy 23 south of Revelstoke.
I have no idea whether or not the Denman route is comparable to the Hwy 6 Arrow Lakes route. What I do know is that there might be a bridge at that sight today had the Arrow Lakes not been increased in depth by the construction of the Hugh Keenleyside Dam back in the 1960's.
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Post by Scott on Aug 4, 2009 17:49:22 GMT -8
Are there any salt-water cable ferries anywhere else in the world?
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Aug 4, 2009 17:55:19 GMT -8
We used to come through there on the YAG training ships with cadets, back when I'd spend summers at HMCS Quadra. I don't remember ever seeing many other ships or boats in the area.
If this doesn't present a problem to the seafarers in the region, I think this could be a good way to reduce costs on this run.
As far as the maintenance goes, I think that's one of the primary reasons BCF is pushing this. Going to a cable ferry reduces a lot of the machinery required, which in turn reduces the maintenance needs. I think if this were to happen, almost all the maintenance could be done either on the run or in dock. Trips to DPM could be as rare as once every 5 years.
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Post by Scott on Aug 4, 2009 18:28:23 GMT -8
Wikipedia has a list of cable ferries around the world, almost exclusively in freshwater (rivers/lakes). However, there is one in England, the Sandbanks ferry: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbanks_FerryIf you read it, you'll see that overall, it has a good safety record, but has had some accidents. I don't mean to make too much of a few accidents, but it does raise the issue of safety. Does an ocean crossing pose more risks than a lake or river crossing? It would probably encounter heavier seas. The Sandbanks ferry also operates in an area of heavy marine traffic and there have been no issues (other than collisions) - so I assume that is a non-issue. Safety might be an issue here as it may be more difficult for a cable ferry to take action to avoid a collision with another vessel (or with a log floating in the water). Another thing to consider, which probably wouldn't be considered by BC Ferries, is that a cable ferry won't be able to respond to marine emergencies in the area as it has in the past.
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Post by NMcKay on Aug 4, 2009 21:36:05 GMT -8
operating costs will be greatly reduced. I remember a conversation about the needles ferry, and its crew of 3 (no Marine Experience Required) .. vs. a BCF ferry with a crew of 5 (or 7)
Seems logical that if you can get away with it.. use the cheaper alternative.. you really need no major seafaring experience.. just pull a leaver, and the boat goes the other way.. i think it has to do with the classification of a "Gondola" instead of a "Ferry" no need to include Transport Canada in the process anymore
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Post by Queen of Nanaimo Teen on Aug 4, 2009 22:39:22 GMT -8
The motors for the Needles ferry are indeed onboard the vessel. I myself usually travel on her every summer to go visit a Grand Aunt and Uncle that live near Nakusp. Here, you can see the 3 different cables, 1 on each side, and 1 underneath: I'm not sure how they would make this work on a Salt water run....
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Post by NMcKay on Aug 5, 2009 22:28:09 GMT -8
could a composite cable work? something that wouldn't rust, be flexible, and still able to handle a full boat?
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Post by c15cat on Aug 6, 2009 17:17:18 GMT -8
I can't see steel cables lasting long in salt water being rust and electrolysis.
There is plastic coatings you can use on wire rope but it makes it slippery so how is a mechanism that grabs and pulls the cable supposed to work.
I would think a chain would work better something like a oversized bicycle chain.
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Post by fargowolf on Aug 6, 2009 17:36:03 GMT -8
The motors for the Needles ferry are indeed onboard the vessel. I myself usually travel on her every summer to go visit a Grand Aunt and Uncle that live near Nakusp. Here, you can see the 3 different cables, 1 on each side, and 1 underneath: I'm not sure how they would make this work on a Salt water run.... If BCF does indeed go ahead, I think it would be exactly like the operation on the Needles/Faquier Ferry. In the pic provided, the outside cables merely guide the ferry across the lake. The middle one is wrapped around two drums. Each drum is turned by a 3000 hp engine and thus pulls the ferry across the lake. The cables have a rubber like coating on them (Like the coating on an electrical cord) for corrosion control. As for the salt water issue... On has only to look to the southern UK where there are several similar operations on salt water (Except that huge steel chains are used instead of steel cables), and most of them cross navigable waterways. It wouldn't take much to reconstruct the terminals either. It's more awkward, than anything else, because they have to keep the terminal open. And yes, a cable ferry like the one at Needles is FAR cheaper to run than a conventional ferry.
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Post by c15cat on Aug 6, 2009 20:07:38 GMT -8
I think a small route like that BCF should give it back to the gov't.
By the time you spend all the money to convert a regular ship to cable operated and modify the terminals is there going to be enough revenue to make it worth it.
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Aug 6, 2009 21:56:33 GMT -8
How much would it really cost to convert a barge ferry to cable operated. Install a couple of shackles on the sides and weld a hook to each end. Then you sell RADs, prime movers and a bunch of other crap you no longer need and voila you might even make money doing the conversion.
Cheers,
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 6, 2009 22:14:36 GMT -8
It now looks like I'll be having an extended solo stay at my place on Hornby starting in a week or so, so I'll be attending the information meeting on Denman on the 20th. Any points that have been brought up here that aren't addressed, I'll ask about. I don't have a computer up there- hopefully there's no problem posting to this forum from a public one.
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Post by Curtis on Aug 6, 2009 23:10:02 GMT -8
Time to put my opinion into this. When I look at it, it's both a good idea and a bad idea. While a Cable ferry is good in concept and business-wise there are a few downsides to look at. The Pros... - It would reduce the amount of crew needed to run the route (and thus, possibly reducing prices)
- The cable ferry could do the job slightly faster than a conventional vessel
- It could handle traffic volume fairly well if a Ferry was built specially for the route
That's about if for pros...
The Cons... - My first point is a big I$$ue...The Co$t of both Terminal and Ferry modifications.
...Did they not just recently build a new dock at Buckley Bay?
- Blockage of marine traffic in the channel
- The fact that it's the only cable ferry in the system...
-A K Class or two will have to be modified as a replacement -If the docks were changed to a ramp system (e.g. Kwuna) they'd have to take a vessel to Deas just to put the ramps on and off. (The cable feed mod is the easy part of this)
- Unless being the Quinitsa's permanent replacement is BCFS' plan for the Klitsa, we have a problem. Or they just give the Aliford Bay-Skidigate route tug and barge service so they can send down the Kwuna
- Not to mention canceled sailings could go up. If the Quinitsa broke down and required maintenance, the replacement vessel would take as long to get into service as it would to fix the Quinitsa.
- Finally, I hate having to say this one, but that route looks like a prime candidate for a bridge. The only thing I see stopping it is that Denman doesn't have a population big enough to support a project of that size.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 7, 2009 19:06:29 GMT -8
[/li][li]Finally, I hate having to say this one, but that route looks like a prime candidate for a bridge. The only thing I see stopping it is that Denman doesn't have a population big enough to support a project of that size.[/list][/quote] Umm, yeah, I guess the expenditure of several hundred millions of dollars on a bridge to serve two thousand people might not seem like the best idea... Cable ferry under study for Denman Island routeBy Marcel Tetrault, Comox Valley EchoAugust 7, 2009 The Comox Valley might soon be more closely 'tied' with Denman Island. B.C. Ferries has begun a study to determine the feasibility of replacing the current vessel ferrying people and cars between Buckley Bay and Denman Island with a cable ferry. A cable ferry is guided, and sometimes propelled, by cables connected to both shores and running along either side of the vessel. The move, according to B.C. Ferries spokesperson Deborah Marshall, is designed to cut costs on the money-losing route. Ferrying people between Denman Island and Buckley Bay cost B.C. Ferries $2.3 million over the last fiscal year, she said. A cable ferry has a smaller engine so not only does it require less fuel but it is also cheaper to maintain and replace. The ferry would likely also require fewer people to run, resulting in wage savings. "We understand that it is less expensive to operate than our current service," said Marshall. "That's why we are exploring it." The service provided by a cable ferry is expected to be precisely the same as the service currently provided -- the number of sailings, size of the vessel and length of the sailings are not expected to change. Marshall said it is too early to tell whether or not the cost savings will be significant enough to pass on to customers through lower fares. "It's difficult to say at this point, that's all part of the feasibility (study)," said Marshall. "Certainly having our operating costs lower could trickle down to lower fairs eventually." Tony Law, the chair of the Denman-Hornby Ferry Advisory Committee, said that as long as the current level of service is maintained, the method by which it is delivered is not particularly important. "There are a lot of hoops they've got to go through in terms of regulations and environment," said Law. Concerns Law has about the proposal include whether or not additional trips could be added as the passenger load demands -- during the summer the current ferry as much as doubles the number of scheduled crossings to handle the traffic. He is also concerned with whether or not a replacement vessel could be quickly made available should the cable ferry break down. While the cable sinks beneath the water after the vessel passes, other issues raised by Law include the impact of a cable ferry on recreational boating traffic in Baynes Sound, the shellfish industry and the environment. To explore those and other issues, B.C. Ferries is holding a public meeting and open house on Thursday, August 20 at the Seniors Hall (1111 Northwest Road) on Denman Island. The open house runs from 1:30 to 3 p.m. with the public meeting to follow and running until 4 p.m. For more information, contact Sarah Cotton at B.C. Ferries at 250-978-1398 or sarah.cotton@bcferries.com. © Copyright (c) Canwest News Service
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Post by Scott on Aug 7, 2009 19:40:15 GMT -8
Does anyone know the reasoning around why a cable ferry needs fewer crew than a conventional vessel? I thought the biggest reason for crew was to be there in case of emergency. I suppose you might be able to lose one person from the engine room?
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