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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jul 6, 2013 8:47:18 GMT -8
Unfortunately, I think it's far too late for this to have any effect, but Pete Kimmerly, a retired senior master on the Hornby route, has put together a detailed website spelling out the reasons for opposing this project. If nothing else, his research may serve as an prescient indictment of the cable adventure, if things end up going wrong. www.sendintheclowns.info/I didn't think that the cable ferry was a good idea before I saw this webpage but now, I hate it even more. I won't be surprised if it ends up like the the FastCat fiasco and fails miserably. This is just as big of a waste of money as the FastCats were, but the amount of money wasted is of a much lesser quantity. At least David Hahn knew a bad idea when he saw one; even he was opposed to this project. (Not that I agree with him about everything) It could go both ways. For example of a success if BC Ferries look at all the cable ferries and ask how to a cable in water with currents, tides and waves. If BC Ferries just look at ones in North America it would be failure because they would just know basic facts about cable ferries.
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Post by compdude787 on Jul 6, 2013 22:25:48 GMT -8
I didn't think that the cable ferry was a good idea before I saw this webpage but now, I hate it even more. I won't be surprised if it ends up like the the FastCat fiasco and fails miserably. This is just as big of a waste of money as the FastCats were, but the amount of money wasted is of a much lesser quantity. At least David Hahn knew a bad idea when he saw one; even he was opposed to this project. (Not that I agree with him about everything) Would you care to elaborate on this rant? If you stop and look at the facts, you'd be surprised to find out that it was Mr. Hahn's idea before anyone else's. Signed, -sccommuter (who will now stop yapping and get back to his traditional breakfast) Actually, from reading through comments on this thread, I thought David Hahn was opposed to this. Particularly this comment gave me that impression: Even David Hann thought this idea was a joke to begin with.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 11:06:28 GMT -8
Actually, from reading through comments on this thread, I thought David Hahn was opposed to this. Particularly this comment gave me that impression: Even David Hann thought this idea was a joke to begin with. I suppose your guess is as good as mine when it comes to who thought it up first. But Hahn was one of the principal figures that was responsible for driving this project forward. The Cable Ferry project has been interesting to watch unfold at least. Quinitsa could very well become the replacement vessel instead of Kahloke to not piss off Denman customers too much... I doubt it'll happen though, given that the company has no competition. BC Ferries is planning on keeping the docks for the first year, but in the end the conventional docks will likely have to be kept to maintain some sort of connection when the Cable Queen goes in for maintenance.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jul 8, 2013 12:04:17 GMT -8
I suppose your guess is as good as mine when it comes to who thought it up first. No need to guess; the idea originated with Martin Crilly, the former ferry commissioner. I'm not aware of any report indicating that David Hahn ever thought it was a joke.
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Post by compdude787 on Jul 11, 2013 19:42:21 GMT -8
After thinking about it some more, I'm actually doubting whether David Hahn thought this was a bad idea or not. The project started while he was still there, and before he left, he had plenty of time to put an end to it. So really I'm thinking Hahn may have not been against it.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 8, 2013 16:34:01 GMT -8
There was an information meeting this afternoon in a sweltering little building next to Hornby's elementary school; the cable ferry project people obviously under estimated the expected attendance.
BC Ferries provided a decent group of reps to answer questions, headed by VP of Engineering Mark Wilson as well as two or three project honchos, and the area manager, Al de Koninck.
Pretty much every aspect of the project was addressed, and aside from one chap who raised the possibility of a bridge, most of the questions were reasonable and pertinent. Retired captain Pete Kimmerly again pressed Wilson on what he claimed were drastic under estimates in BC Ferries' modelling of maximum wind events, without a clear resolution- in fact, Wilson somewhat exasperatedly asked Kimmmerly if he felt the consulting company had been deceitful about their data, and Kimmerly said no, just inept. Kimmerly again called into question the strength of the cables and the seaworthiness of a boat with such a shallow draught in extreme conditions. It was clear that these two have encountered each other before. They simply did not agree on the science.
Mark Wilson stated that the cable ferry model had been through extensive tank and wind tunnel testing at maximum conditions and under full load. The boat is, supposedly, able to sail in 55 knot winds, with gusts to 70- the same as Quinitsa. I didn't get a good look at the storyboards, but there are apparently no dolphins at the docks, with the boat being held in place by the cables. Sounds rather precarious in a full gale, but I'm not an expert.
The boat will sail at eight knots, and unloading will be somewhat faster with two lanes at a time. That may allow a round trip every 30 minutes, as opposed to the current 40 or 45. They are aiming for a crew of three, but BC Ferries has not yet gotten definitive word from Transport Canada on that point. Mark Wilson referred to an 'operator' and two deckhands. As for the loss of jobs on Denman, apparently only half the current crew lives on the island, so the loss will not be what I had previously thought. However, the positions on the new ferry will not be at the pay level of the current crew. I don't know what 'operator' means, in terms of seamanship, compared to a captain.
A number of people had concerns at there being only three crew if an emergency arose with a school bus on board. Wilson could only say that Transport Canada regulations would be met. There clearly will be less 'lounge' space on the new boat, and that will be a factor with full loads. School buses do not come on board as is.
There are three yards in the running to build the boat- two in BC, and one Washington yard. The decision is not far away.
I asked about the fact that Thetis Island got a considerable increase in capacity a few years back with the placing of the Kuper on that run- I wanted to know if that had been mandated by the province under the coastal ferry services contract, or if it had been a discretionary move on BC Ferries' part. My point was that Thetis capacity utilization is lower than Hornby's, and also, that BC Ferries is saying this new boat has to carry fifty cars because that is all the province demands under the contract. I pointed out that it would be sixty five years with no increase in capacity for Denman and Hornby. Wilson was not sure about the Thetis situation, but promised to look into it.
In terms of the business wisdom of this project, BC Ferries is expected to save $20 million, in today's dollars, over the forty year expected life of this ferry. That includes everything from the cost of the storyboards at the information meetings, all the concept examination, planning, building, and operating costs over the forty years. I don't know if they're allowing for any glitches in an operation that is untested at this length and under the weather conditions that can crop up here, i.e. the hurricane force winds that struck Chrome Islet in that big blow several years ago. In any event, when Pete Kimmerly asked for applause yay or nay on the project, the nays were unanimous, so BC Ferries has clearly not convinced the rabble in all their umm, 'consultations'.
Wilson claimed that the cable ferry would only be taken out of service once every ten years for refit. Cable replacement can be done overnight (yeah, right). The existing docks would be left in place and maintained as necessary until the end of their service life; if that's the case, then that represents a change from the initial plan. The Quinitsa would become a spare vessel, filling in for refit.
I was really annoyed when Al de Koninck told the peasants that they should be pretty satisfied with service levels, given all the extra sailings BC Ferries puts on to Denman and Hornby, above their contractual obligations. The fact is, the Quinitsa and Kahloke are completely inadequate in July and August, and at other peak times, and that's the real reason for the extra sailings. It's arrogance like that that stimulates people's reactions to BC Ferries.
I did think BC Ferries' conclusion that this new vessel will be more environmentally friendly are reasonable. The vast decrease in fuel burned probably outweighs the effect of seabed scouring.
That's pretty much the gist of things. I didn't photograph the story boards because they apparently will be up on BC Ferries' website tomorrow, in the FAC section. I also didn't photograph them because I got there right at 2 when the meeting began; the place was packed, and they started disassembling everything even while the last person was asking his question.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 16, 2013 14:12:48 GMT -8
Protest on Denman... www.comoxvalleyrecord.com/news/219625721.htmlTry as I might, I can't envision any scenario where the province overrides BC Ferries on this project. There hasn't been a single Liberal that I know of who's voiced any concern about the cable ferry- certainly not Todd Stone. This is a government that, while opposed by 57% of voters, feels they have a fresh mandate to push whatever agenda they want, and I doubt they're going to be terribly receptive to a band of malcontents on two islands who very much voted the 'wrong' way in May. I'm not aware of any media sources who've voiced any opposition, and unless I'm misconstruing his statements, even FAC chair Tony Law seems somewhat tepid in his opposition. I suspect that BC Ferries will tell the VIHA and the school district whatever story they need to hear about reliability and ship stability. The 'savings' that BC Ferries is gaining through this project will be completely negated if they find they need a bigger boat before the forty year life of this one is done, but I doubt that argument would carry any weight, either. On one point I agree with Mark Wilson; the argument over historical storm figures is largely irrelevant- the important thing is that this boat is- supposedly- being designed to operate in the same conditions as Quinitsa.
At best, a strong, clear, evidence based statement of opposition will serve as proof in hindsight that BC Ferries' planning and modelling were faulty, if and when something goes haywire. I can't see it as having much effect on a project that looks to be going to a shipyard in a month, with provincial blessing. I would love to be proved wrong.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 16, 2013 16:54:50 GMT -8
On one point I agree with Mark Wilson; the argument over historical storm figures is largely irrelevant- the important thing is that this boat is- supposedly- being designed to operate in the same conditions as Quinitsa. I'm not being thick-headed deliberately, but I've read this sentence a few times, and I still don't understand Neil's point. - can you please kindly expound on it, to let me know what you mean. Thanks !
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 16, 2013 17:42:24 GMT -8
On one point I agree with Mark Wilson; the argument over historical storm figures is largely irrelevant- the important thing is that this boat is- supposedly- being designed to operate in the same conditions as Quinitsa. I'm not being thick-headed deliberately, but I've read this sentence a few times, and I still don't understand Neil's point. - can you please kindly expound on it, to let me know what you mean. Thanks ! You're not being thick headed, Mr Horn... I neglected to clarify what has obviously been a bone of contention between Pete Kimmerly and Mark Wilson. BC Ferries has figures on the worst weather conditions that would be expected in Baynes Sound over a hundred year period. Their wind figures, as Pete has pointed out, are absurdly low; somewhere around 35 knots, I believe. Pete has pointed out that during the big storm that hit six or seven years ago, Chrome Islet recorded winds of I think in the area of 100 knots, or perhaps more. However... despite disagreeing significantly on 'worst' conditions, it seems to me that the important consideration for the new ferry is that it be able to operate to the same limit as Quinitsa, which is apparently 55 knot winds gusting to 70. BC Ferries claims that this will be the case.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 16, 2013 21:20:18 GMT -8
Evening folks, Bernhard Weiss and I met with Don McRae about 2 weeks ago over this issue. I provided a letter to be forwarded to Transport Minister Todd Stone. (A real good way to get to a Minister you don't know is to get a Minister you do know to forward it). Don McRae is Liberal and our two islands elected him. He is a resource. Likely he did not get many votes from the islands but he IS in Cabinet now and IS our MLA. There is light at the end of the tunnel. The protest on Sunday will likely get decent coverage. There is another scathing press release coming from Dr. Colin Boyd on Monday. He is a Professor of Transportation disasters. He was on International television 2 hours after they flew planes into the world trade centre. He is attacking BC Ferries upper management in a very eloquent way. Their core value statements will be challenged on national media outlets. Cheers Peter * Dr Colin Boyd: www.edwards.usask.ca/faculty/Colin%20Boyd/If Dr Boyd has access to and can fully refute the accuracy of BC Ferries' research and modelling, as well as the methodology of their consultants, he will certainly have credibility on this issue, given his credentials. Will there be somewhere that we can view his statement, if it's not easily accessible in the popular media?
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Aug 16, 2013 21:38:16 GMT -8
:)looking down the road after my departure from this ferry watcher's life time in this field, I guess many of the folk that were accustomed to steel ferries with all the nice observation lounges, without pay-per-view lounges and wacky service to his beloved holliday islands, will just have to live with the 'cable queen' with hi-end travel industry nomenclature to help pay the freight! mrdot.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2013 22:19:48 GMT -8
Can't find any updates on the protest, or anything on the promised analysis from Dr. Colin Boyd.
??
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Post by Ferryman on Aug 21, 2013 8:16:46 GMT -8
Can't find any updates on the protest, or anything on the promised analysis from Dr. Colin Boyd. ?? I think the whole BCF Executive Bonus news has totally washed away all of the negative press coming in about the Cable Ferry. The Province newspaper (not surprisingly) is doing a good job of that, with Gravy Boat titles, etc on the front page, followed by a wimpy article right below it all. Kind of bad timing for the release of this I guess, but better now than never I suppose.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 21, 2013 13:03:27 GMT -8
I followed this link to a Vancouver Province article on this subject and found another of my photos being 'borrowed' (the Province says 'submitted photo'). No doubt that it was found on my Flickr site here. In the perfect world people would ask before borrowing... In any case, I support the people of Denman/Hornby in their quest to ensure that they have safe, reliable and affordable ferry service well into the future; a service that has is adequate for current demand, and able to meet increased demand in the future.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 5, 2013 21:37:33 GMT -8
"Scott, Flugel Horn, and 11 more like this."
I've never seen such a response to a post. Are you guys all outraged at the cable ferry proposal, or at a newspaper 'borrowing' a photograph? I think I know the answer.
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I have to respond to the above post from 'cableferryopposer', late though I may be, as I didn't look in here in recent days.
I was really disappointed in Dr. Colin Boyd's comments. I thought there would be some factual, compelling argument, based on research, against the cable ferry proposal, but all I saw was hyperbole and rhetoric.
And maybe a bit of dishonesty.
This quote:
Boyd goes on to give another example of BC Ferry managers’ arrogant and dismissive attitude towards valid queries regarding the proposed cable ferry. At the Hornby meeting island resident Gina-Rae Horvath was concerned that the cable ferry would only have a crew of 3, and yet would handle the same number of passengers and vehicles as the current ferry. She asked “If there was a school bus on board with over 20 kids on a special trip, and the ferry had to be evacuated, then would there be enough crew members to help them into the life rafts?”
The BC Ferry manager replied by stating that if there was an emergency, he was sure that members of the public would rise to the occasion and help rescue all the kids on the school bus.
I was at the Hornby meeting, and I did not hear that response. There is a disingenuous agenda here of characterising BC Ferries as being willfully dismissive of people's safety. I would suggest that some folks need to take a step back and examine if perhaps they've invested a little too much emotion in this issue.
Virtually no one on Denman or Hornby wants this cable ferry. But it is not going to be stopped by drawing fangs on pictures of Mark Wilson or other BC Ferries reps.
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Post by compdude787 on Sept 6, 2013 11:30:07 GMT -8
"Scott, Flugel Horn, and 11 more like this." I've never seen such a response to a post. Are you guys all outraged at the cable ferry proposal, or at a newspaper 'borrowing' a photograph? I think I know the answer. Actually it says, "Scott, Flugel Horn, and 1 more like this." (That other person is me) Just FYI.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 6, 2013 12:20:49 GMT -8
"Scott, Flugel Horn, and 11 more like this." I've never seen such a response to a post. Are you guys all outraged at the cable ferry proposal, or at a newspaper 'borrowing' a photograph? I think I know the answer. I just liked hitting that button on the screen. Also, I usually listen to the hit song of KC and the Sunshine Band when I'm reading the forum, and so I am unconsciously liking things. (uh-huh uh-huh).
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 6, 2013 21:02:43 GMT -8
"Scott, Flugel Horn, and 11 more like this." I've never seen such a response to a post. Are you guys all outraged at the cable ferry proposal, or at a newspaper 'borrowing' a photograph? I think I know the answer. I just liked hitting that button on the screen. Also, I usually listen to the hit song of KC and the Sunshine Band when I'm reading the forum, and so I am unconsciously liking things. (uh-huh uh-huh). I had looked at that post twice before I replied, and I knew I saw an '11'. The younger, more impressionable members of the Forum should be warned about the levels of mischief that some moderators get up to.
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Post by Mike on Sept 6, 2013 21:51:18 GMT -8
I had looked at that post twice before I replied, and I knew I saw an '11'. I think it might actually be a Proboards bug, as I also sometimes see some posts that say something like "and 6 more like this" but when I actually click it, there aren't any additional people who show up on the list of people who like the post.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 23, 2013 7:16:23 GMT -8
Do you want to know a bit about how a cable ferry works?
- this video will tell and show you a bit
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 23, 2013 14:14:14 GMT -8
The BC Ferries response to cable-ferry critics. - this letter was sent to many people who have questioned the project. I copied this particular one from the Comox Valley Record newspaper website. link
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Post by compdude787 on Sept 23, 2013 16:25:56 GMT -8
That's interesting to see the other side of this debate. Although Mike Corrigan addresses concerns about the new ferry's smaller crewing level, he doesn't say anything to quell concerns about how it would fare in high winds or the fact that it is the same size as the current ferry which is too small.
Also, Corrigan said that the cable ferry would free up the Quinitsa to be used as a relief vessel. Really? I thought it was going to Hornby, and Kahloke would then serve as a relief vessel.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 6, 2013 14:09:07 GMT -8
Pete Kimmerly, who's been heading the opposition to the cable ferry project, has an update in the November edition of Hornby's 'First Edition'.
To summarize: The Request for Proposal has supposedly not gone out, more than two months after it had been scheduled. Kimmerly claims the project budget has more than doubled, and that BC Ferries has not gained approval for the inflated spending. The latest petition against the cable project has over 2000 names, more than Denman and Hornby's population. Despite this, Kimmerly says the local FAC and ratepayers' groups have not expressed an opinion.
He mentions still unsatisfied questions involving performance in extreme winds, insufficient anchoring of cables, the allowable number of cancelled sailings, and the fact that the islands are locked into a fifty car vessel for the next forty years.
Kimmerly claims that expected cost savings in the project have vanished. Somewhat curiously, he adds, "Ferries is just finishing the business case to rebuild the Tenaka."
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 7, 2013 8:13:23 GMT -8
Here's a letter to the editor in a Comox Newspaper, from Laura Pope of Denman Island. - a similar message to what Neil reported seeing at Hornby. from HERE
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 22, 2013 19:17:27 GMT -8
Here's the latest official BCFS comment on the Denman cable ferry: - from the BCFS 2nd quarter "Management's Discussion & Analysis" report, dated Nov.21, 2013.
The italics and underlined parts are my own emphasis.
ok, so this gives us some pushed-ahead dates for contract-awarding and for expected in-service.
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