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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 4, 2024 12:03:40 GMT -8
The narrative on Denman and Hornby is that the cable ferry has been a dreadful failure, and totally undependable. The actual figures on cancelled sailings tell a less dramatic story, but I don't think there's any question- if it had been left to BC Ferries management, they probably would have stuck with a conventional ferry over a concept that, on this route, is at the edge of its logistical efficiency. Any vessel could have caused problems for BC Ferries it seems like now because Coastal Class are average vessels that still manage to cause massive headache for past two years.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 4, 2024 13:14:39 GMT -8
The narrative on Denman and Hornby is that the cable ferry has been a dreadful failure, and totally undependable. The actual figures on cancelled sailings tell a less dramatic story, but I don't think there's any question- if it had been left to BC Ferries management, they probably would have stuck with a conventional ferry over a concept that, on this route, is at the edge of its logistical efficiency. Any vessel could have caused problems for BC Ferries it seems like now because Coastal Class are average vessels that still manage to cause massive headache for past two years. Not the same. The Coastals have had mechanical issues, in part due to how BC Ferries has chosen to operate them. With the cable ferry, the very concept of that sort of vessel on that route is probably wrong.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 4, 2024 17:07:25 GMT -8
Any vessel could have caused problems for BC Ferries it seems like now because Coastal Class are average vessels that still manage to cause massive headache for past two years. Not the same. The Coastals have had mechanical issues, in part due to how BC Ferries has chosen to operate them. With the cable ferry, the very concept of that sort of vessel on that route is probably wrong. They are same because they are both unplanned delays with Coastal avoiding active pass while for Baynes Sound Connector cable change taking longer.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 4, 2024 21:35:06 GMT -8
Not the same. The Coastals have had mechanical issues, in part due to how BC Ferries has chosen to operate them. With the cable ferry, the very concept of that sort of vessel on that route is probably wrong. They are same because they are both unplanned delays with Coastal avoiding active pass while for Baynes Sound Connector cable change taking longer. I don't think you're paying attention to the bigger picture. We're not just talking about a cable change. The BSC has had several shutdowns due to hydraulics issues, problems with the bullwheels and sloughing off of the plastic 'lubricant' on the original cables; all indications that the concept was not well thought out. There is also the fact that the fuel saving that was originally projected has fallen short, as well as the saving on crewing. BC Ferries has also had to maintain the conventional ferry docks at Buckley Bay and Denman West well past what was first proposed. Martin Crilly's directive to BC Ferries to explore the cable option on a route more than a mile long has clearly proved to be less than a stellar idea.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 4, 2024 22:23:58 GMT -8
They are same because they are both unplanned delays with Coastal avoiding active pass while for Baynes Sound Connector cable change taking longer. I don't think you're paying attention to the bigger picture. We're not just talking about a cable change. The BSC has had several shutdowns due to hydraulics issues, problems with the bullwheels and sloughing off of the plastic 'lubricant' on the original cables; all indications that the concept was not well thought out. There is also the fact that the fuel saving that was originally projected has fallen short, as well as the saving on crewing. BC Ferries has also had to maintain the conventional ferry docks at Buckley Bay and Denman West well past what was first proposed. Martin Crilly's directive to BC Ferries to explore the cable option on a route more than a mile long has clearly proved to be less than a stellar idea. I am looking at the bigger picture for the whole fleet seem to since they have issues too; but, people are more critical of cable ferry because it’s different type of propulsion system compare to the other vessels in fleet. Other vessels also have minor issues from time to time but they are not brought to media or politician attention since it just a normal vessel such as on Island Discovery having propulsion system issues, the Queen of Surrey had fire in 2003 and Queen of Oak Bay lost power in 2005, I don’t see anyone saying we should get rid of her because of those vessels issues. www.coastreporter.net/local-news/multiple-sailings-cancelled-between-texada-and-powell-river-8608528
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 5, 2024 17:13:41 GMT -8
I don't think you're paying attention to the bigger picture. We're not just talking about a cable change. The BSC has had several shutdowns due to hydraulics issues, problems with the bullwheels and sloughing off of the plastic 'lubricant' on the original cables; all indications that the concept was not well thought out. There is also the fact that the fuel saving that was originally projected has fallen short, as well as the saving on crewing. BC Ferries has also had to maintain the conventional ferry docks at Buckley Bay and Denman West well past what was first proposed. Martin Crilly's directive to BC Ferries to explore the cable option on a route more than a mile long has clearly proved to be less than a stellar idea. I am looking at the bigger picture for the whole fleet seem to since they have issues too; but, people are more critical of cable ferry because it’s different type of propulsion system compare to the other vessels in fleet. Other vessels also have minor issues from time to time but they are not brought to media or politician attention since it just a normal vessel such as on Island Discovery having propulsion system issues, the Queen of Surrey had fire in 2003 and Queen of Oak Bay lost power in 2005, I don’t see anyone saying we should get rid of her because of those vessels issues. www.coastreporter.net/local-news/multiple-sailings-cancelled-between-texada-and-powell-river-8608528You're missing the point. Your examples of problems in other BC Ferries vessels are fixable. The limitations of the BSC aren't. It hasn't and can't deliver the fuel savings initially touted. I know this is repetitive, but it hasn't delivered the saving in crewing because TC has mandated one more crewperson than BC Ferries was counting on. Miscalculations on the cables resulted in horrible amounts of plastic sloughing off into Baynes Sound, and since then, cable changes have happened more often, and sometimes, as we've just seen, unsuccessfully. Problems with the logistics of hauling the cables through the ferry and around the bullwheels seem systemic and permanent. BC Ferries had a master mariner in Hornby Island's Peter Kimmerly warning them the the depth of Baynes Sound and the length of crossing made this venture dubious at best. BC Ferries on occasion has touted the Denman route as the world's longest cable ferry operation. If nothing else, when you look at the problems, that claim just highlights the fact that there is a limit to where you can run what is essentially a horizontal elevator floating on water, and BC Ferries seems to have found it.
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Post by Kahloke on May 5, 2024 18:24:39 GMT -8
I am looking at the bigger picture for the whole fleet seem to since they have issues too; but, people are more critical of cable ferry because it’s different type of propulsion system compare to the other vessels in fleet. Other vessels also have minor issues from time to time but they are not brought to media or politician attention since it just a normal vessel such as on Island Discovery having propulsion system issues, the Queen of Surrey had fire in 2003 and Queen of Oak Bay lost power in 2005, I don’t see anyone saying we should get rid of her because of those vessels issues. www.coastreporter.net/local-news/multiple-sailings-cancelled-between-texada-and-powell-river-8608528You're missing the point. Your examples of problems in other BC Ferries vessels are fixable. The limitations of the BSC aren't. It hasn't and can't deliver the fuel savings initially touted. I know this is repetitive, but it hasn't delivered the saving in crewing because TC has mandated one more crewperson than BC Ferries was counting on. Miscalculations on the cables resulted in horrible amounts of plastic sloughing off into Baynes Sound, and since then, cable changes have happened more often, and sometimes, as we've just seen, unsuccessfully. Problems with the logistics of hauling the cables through the ferry and around the bullwheels seem systemic and permanent. BC Ferries had a master mariner in Hornby Island's Peter Kimmerly warning them the the depth of Baynes Sound and the length of crossing made this venture dubious at best. BC Ferries on occasion has touted the Denman route as the world's longest cable ferry operation. If nothing else, when you look at the problems, that claim just highlights the fact that there is a limit to where you can run what is essentially a horizontal elevator floating on water, and BC Ferries seems to have found it. I agree with Neil on this one. What may have been a well-intentioned idea for saving costs and "going green" ended up as a fiasco, not achieving any of the goals it was supposed to meet, not the least of which is a vessel that is drastically undersized for the route it serves. That one was a miss from the very beginning, and let's not forget that the province, or whoever was in charge of this program, shoved it down the throats of the Denman and Hornby constituents, without apparently listening to what those communities wanted, and if I correctly remember from the forum discussions on that topic, they did NOT want this cable ferry. Add to that the closing down of Baynes Sound to vessels when BSC is making the crossing, that creates another hazard and outright annoyance to other boaters. This goes well beyond mechanical and electrical systems on vessels breaking - that happens with all ferries, new and old - the concept as a whole has completely fallen flat on its face. There are no easy answers for how to address this issue going forward. In the short term, BC Ferries will likely continue to work with BSC and deal with issues as they arise. I don't see them replacing the boat anytime soon. It's too new. In the long term, I think a hybrid vessel like the Island Class boats would be a good solution to replace BSC; something like Wolfe Islander IV in Ontario, which is basically an Island XL class for lack of a better name. That ferry carries around 75 cars.
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Post by Elwha on the Rocks on May 5, 2024 18:36:58 GMT -8
Out of curiosity, what was the consensus on the two boat service they tried last summer with Kahloke and BSC? Looks like they're planning it again this summer. Did this (and Quinitsa at Hornby) make a dent in the notorious summer traffic up there? I'd have to imagine having two boat service, with one being an "traditional" diesel boat, completely eroded any semblance of crew/fuel savings from the BSC?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 5, 2024 20:17:44 GMT -8
Out of curiosity, what was the consensus on the two boat service they tried last summer with Kahloke and BSC? Looks like they're planning it again this summer. Did this (and Quinitsa at Hornby) make a dent in the notorious summer traffic up there? I'd have to imagine having two boat service, with one being an "traditional" diesel boat, completely eroded any semblance of crew/fuel savings from the BSC? It made a huge difference, and apart from the most intransigent BC Ferries critics, it was appreciated. One of the under reported though very important factors was that families with kids were less likely to be half a mile or more from bathrooms. To cut BC Ferries some slack, even when the cable ferry was being proposed, I attended an information meeting where their reps sort of acknowledged that replacing the Quinitsa with a cable ferry with the same capacity was not necessarily ideal, and the cable ferry may eventually need to be cut and enlarged; not, on the surface a difficult procedure, given the simplicity of the hull structure. More complicated, though, given the logistics of operating such a vessel on a route of more than a mile. I really believe that if this had been wholly left up to BC Ferries, and not imposed by the strange governance interference of the BC Ferry Commission and its head at the time, Martin Crilly, the BSC would have never left the drawing board.
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Post by northwesterner on May 6, 2024 15:53:13 GMT -8
What may have been a well-intentioned idea for saving costs and "going green" ended up as a fiasco, not achieving any of the goals it was supposed to meet, not the least of which is a vessel that is drastically undersized for the route it serves. That one was a miss from the very beginning, and let's not forget that the province, or whoever was in charge of this program, shoved it down the throats of the Denman and Hornby constituents, without apparently listening to what those communities wanted, and if I correctly remember from the forum discussions on that topic, they did NOT want this cable ferry. Add to that the closing down of Baynes Sound to vessels when BSC is making the crossing, that creates another hazard and outright annoyance to other boaters. Regular reminder that "listening to what the communities wanted" does not equal good policy, particularly when it comes to transportation planning. The real failures on this project were all on the engineering and operations side of the house at BCFerries. They hired and trusted "experts" who got it wrong. The vessel needs more crew, more maintenance, and is undersized for traffic. Every input in those areas of the model was wrong, and not just by a little bit.
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