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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 27, 2022 15:29:31 GMT -8
I think the Queen of Cumberland will mostly likely do the Bowen Queen role in replacing the larger minor vessels when needed. Salish Class vessel will take Queen of Cumberland duties on Southern Gulf Island while Queen of Cumberland fells in for other vessels.
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Post by explorer on Jan 27, 2022 18:04:29 GMT -8
Appreciated.
Is it safe to assume the Mayne Queen and Bowen Queen will be retired this year for good?
If the Salish Class is the mainstay for Route 5 and the Queen of Cumberland for 5A and other duties.
Is it possible that it could fill in a few slots on Route 4 to help out the Skeena Queen during June, July and August during peak demand?
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 27, 2022 19:04:25 GMT -8
Appreciated. Is it safe to assume the Mayne Queen and Bowen Queen will be retired this year for good? If the Salish Class is the mainstay for Route 5 and the Queen of Cumberland for 5A and other duties. Is it possible that it could fill in a few slots on Route 4 to help out the Skeena Queen during June, July and August during peak demand? That is plan. I doubt BC Ferries would put Queen of Cumberland[\i] on route 4 in summer because they never didn’t with the Mayne Queen.
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Post by articulated on Jan 27, 2022 20:21:25 GMT -8
Appreciated. Is it safe to assume the Mayne Queen and Bowen Queen will be retired this year for good? If the Salish Class is the mainstay for Route 5 and the Queen of Cumberland for 5A and other duties. Is it possible that it could fill in a few slots on Route 4 to help out the Skeena Queen during June, July and August during peak demand? That is plan. I doubt BC Ferries would put Queen of Cumberland[\i] on route 4 in summer because they never didn’t with the Mayne Queen.I'm not sure Queen of Cumberland is any sort of an upgrade over Skeena Queen on route 4 - any slight benefits you gain in capacity per trip (112 vs 92 vehicles) gets lost when you consider the extra loading time required for using the platform decks. Route 4 at its 35 minute trip length would lose a lot of time raising/lowering the decks at each end of each trip. If you are speaking instead to pulling one of the two vessels off of route 5/5A to operate extra trips on route 4 - I also think that's a non-starter. Inter-island traffic to other island on summer weekends still exists, and there is a need to support/feed the route 9 vessels so they don't need to stop on every island (thus making quicker/more frequent trips to/from Tsawwassen).
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Post by explorer on Jan 27, 2022 21:59:35 GMT -8
"If you are speaking instead to pulling one of the two vessels off of route 5/5A to operate extra trips on route 4 - I also think that's a non-starter. Inter-island traffic to other island on summer weekends still exists, and there is a need to support/feed the route 9 vessels so they don't need to stop on every island (thus making quicker/more frequent trips to/from Tsawwassen)."
Maybe not so much on Weekends but Weekdays. The Quinitsa becomes a spare from Route 6 when the Quinsam comes down from Route 19 with the advent or their new 2 Ferry Service. Some have suggested that the Quinitsa be used to supplement Route 4 when peak demand is present. For a vessel that seems to cruise at 8 kts on a good day, I'm not sure how it fits in on that long a stage length. We see the Skeena cruising at 12.5 Kts similar to the Queen of Cumberland. To me it doesn't sound like a great fit.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 28, 2022 11:26:19 GMT -8
But I also heard Salt Spring residents want Quinsam[\i] and Quinitsa to provide two boat service on route 6.
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dave2
Chief Steward
Deckhand!: Todo: Introduction post (I was born less than 100 feet from the ocean. The tide was...)
Posts: 155
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Post by dave2 on Jan 28, 2022 11:41:15 GMT -8
Quick question: what is the difference between Route 5 and Route 5A?
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Post by explorer on Jan 28, 2022 13:56:21 GMT -8
But I also heard Salt Spring residents want Quinsam[\i] and Quinitsa to provide two boat service on route 6. Yes, there is a Petition circulating called the "Fix for Route Six"
www.gulfislandsdriftwood.com/news/petition-asks-for-two-ships-on-route-6/There's a conflict between the Petitioners and SSI - Ferry Advisory Committee who have requested an increase in service on Route 4 (last June) using the MV Quinitsa for the Peak Demand Months of June, July and August 2022. Some of the Petitioners are concerned it's a misfit in number of ways, lack of speed and capacity for a start. Some were hoping the Cumberland could fill in on uplift in those high demand months by dovetailing with the service on Route 5a. From the feedback so far it doesn't sound like it is a plausible solution from a scheduling standpoint, hard to be in two places at once. Sounds like the Mayne Queen would have been a viable option if wasn't past its shelf life, along with the Bowen Queen. Route 19 and Route 6 are almost identical in Stage Length roughly 3NM. Using the New Island Class Vessels with their speed capability they anticipate 40 Min Turn Arounds on Route 19 during peak travel demand 0700 -1900. Then one vessel service in the evening. Do these Vessels normally cruise at 12.5 Kts? It looks like the Petitioners on Route 6 are requesting hourly service from both Crofton and Vesuvius during peak demand. We are at Traffic Gridlock on the Roadways at both Vesuvius, Crofton and Fulford. Their idea is by placing more cars on ferries with the added frequency, we free up our Roadways to two way once again. With about 13% more capacity on Route 6 than Route 4 the idea is traffic will naturally migrate to Route 6 and help mitigate traffic mayhem at Fulford as well. It's deemed a win for all 3 Terminals when it comes to traffic congestion. It's suggested that the Car Park Containment Areas haven't changed in almost 50 years. While population and demand have increased substantially.
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Post by explorer on Jan 29, 2022 9:37:31 GMT -8
After doing a search I see this has all been hashed a year ago - Gotcha.
What is the current capacity of the Cumberland with upper deck stowed and capacity with it in place taking vehicles?
Thanks!
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Jan 29, 2022 11:08:31 GMT -8
What is the current capacity of the Cumberland with upper deck stowed and capacity with it in place taking vehicles? BCFerries lists the Cumberland's capacity as 112, though I believe this to be conservative. It was once listed as 127, which I think is a better approximation- about 85 on the main deck plus 21 or so on each platform.
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Post by explorer on Jan 29, 2022 18:11:49 GMT -8
Thank you!
The Young Attendant who runs the snack bar suggested 140 total last Fall - LOL.
I've never be onboard when they've used the ramps, is it a time consuming exercise along the lines ramping down into the bilge on the Salish Class?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 29, 2022 19:35:32 GMT -8
I've never be onboard when they've used the ramps, is it a time consuming exercise along the lines ramping down into the bilge on the Salish Class? I've managed to get video twice of the Cumberland's ramps in motion. The key issue is that no passengers can be in the cars on the ramps when the ramps are in motion. So this adds to the delay. Seen from Shore: Seen OnBoard:
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 29, 2022 19:46:06 GMT -8
I've never be onboard when they've used the ramps, is it a time consuming exercise along the lines ramping down into the bilge on the Salish Class? I've managed to get video twice of the Cumberland's ramps in motion. The key issue is that no passengers can be on the ramps (or in the cars on the ramps) when the ramps are in motion. So this adds to the delay. I saw passengers standing ramps on opposite side of being lower on the Fulford Harbour route.
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Post by explorer on Jan 29, 2022 22:55:26 GMT -8
Thanks!
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Post by explorer on Jan 30, 2022 8:24:36 GMT -8
Have we got this all wrong?
If you go to the monthly stats for Route 5. We don't have the 2021 census data as of yet but is it safe to assume they have ~350 Residents on Saturna Island. How much traffic can there be?
If we assume all the traffic decides to go on the 3 Non - Stops Weekdays from Swartz Bay direct to Saturna. That’s roughly 60 sailings/month, then there’s other Non Stops on Weekends and 2 Connections at Village Bay every day.
If you only take the 3 Non Stops/Day on Weekdays, that’s roughly 60/Month.
August 2021 - 2285 movements / 60 = 38 vehicles per sailing. Nov 2021 - 1282 movements / 60 = 22 vehicles per sailing.
What are we missing? Thanks.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
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Post by Neil on Jan 30, 2022 9:37:08 GMT -8
Have we got this all wrong? If you go to the monthly stats for Route 5. We don't have the 2021 census data as of yet but is it safe to assume they have ~350 Residents on Saturna Island. How much traffic can there be? If we assume all the traffic decides to go on the 3 Non - Stops Weekdays from Swartz Bay direct to Saturna. That’s roughly 60 sailings/month, then there’s other Non Stops on Weekends and 2 Connections at Village Bay every day. If you only take the 3 Non Stops/Day on Weekdays, that’s roughly 60/Month. August 2021 - 2285 movements / 60 = 38 vehicles per sailing. Nov 2021 - 1282 movements / 60 = 22 vehicles per sailing. What are we missing? Thanks. I'm not clear on what issue you're addressing here, with regard to Saturna.
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Post by explorer on Jan 30, 2022 10:02:44 GMT -8
Capacity Requirements to service the Community Properly.
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Post by explorer on Jan 30, 2022 15:02:12 GMT -8
What's happened on Route 6? It hasn't been neglected, its been abandoned over the last 20 years. Route 4 to a lesser extent. Our Roadways are used as Ferry Parking Lots in Fulford, Vesuvius and Crofton preventing 2 way traffic. It's traffic gridlock once again when we turn the corner on Omicron. Between June and October last year traffic was up 19% on Route 6 from pre pandemic levels in 2019. Fulford - Route 4 saw a slight decrease. Everybody is pleased with the soon to arrive Salish Heron for Route 5 and the 2 New Island Class Eco Ferries for Route 19.
In 2003 a BCF Analyst predicted that Vesuvius to Crofton and Bowen Island should see New Vessels with the capacity of 110-118 vehicles (AEQ) by 2013. Here we are 19 yrs later with the MV Quinitsa - capacity 44 vehicles. Bowen Island is a little more promising at 100 vehicles with the Queen of Capilano. Any Crew who sail Route 6 know the issues and the Patrons - absolutely! The traffic congestion and sailing waits are patently unreasonable and about rear their ugly heads this Spring and Summer.
Schedule for 2022;
1. Uplifting capacity on Route 5 by replacing The Cumberland (112) this Spring with the Salish Class (138). Increase in capacity 23% 2. Uplifting capacity on Route 5a Swartz Bay - Saturna Island (Population 350) by retiring (or spare) the Mayne Queen (58) and introducing the Cumberland (112). Increase in capacity 93%
Low Season Monthly Stats for total vehicle movements - November 2021 and High Season - August 2021
1. Route 4 - 25,574 / 33,112
2. Route 6 - 20,093 / 30,440
3. Route 5 & 5a combined 22,334 / 30,489
Capacity uplift vessel wise for May 2022
1. Route 4 - 92 Vehicles - Skeena
2. Route 6 - 63 Vehicles - Quinsam
3. Route 5 & 5a - 138 + 112 = 250 Vehicles - Heron & Cumberland
Salt Spring Population is somewhere between 10,600 and 11,500 for the Spring of 2022. Up from 8,000 in 1975 when a car park was carved out to accommodate approximately 45 cars at Vesuvius Bay. In October of 2021 BCF Media stated the MV Quinsam could adequately accommodate foreseen traffic until 2035 when its service life would be complete. Meanwhile the Analyst in 2003 predicted that the Vessel would end its service life in 2028 and MV Quinitsa in 2025. We are starting to think the Analyst in 2003 was pretty clever. If the Quinitsa & Quinsam were used on Route 6 it would provide an uplift of 107 vehicles every 2 hrs. Not quite 110 - 118 vehicles that was suggested 19 years ago but Patrons of this vital link to Mid Vancouver Island would be more than pleased with a similar service.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Jan 30, 2022 17:38:45 GMT -8
What's happened on Route 6? It hasn't been neglected, its been abandoned over the last 20 years. Route 4 to a lesser extent. Our Roadways are used as Ferry Parking Lots in Fulford, Vesuvius and Crofton preventing 2 way traffic. It's traffic gridlock once again when we turn the corner on Omicron. Between June and October last year traffic was up 19% on Route 6 from pre pandemic levels in 2019. Fulford - Route 4 saw a slight decrease. Everybody is pleased with the soon to arrive Salish Heron for Route 5 and the 2 New Island Class Eco Ferries for Route 19. In 2003 a BCF Analyst predicted that Vesuvius to Crofton and Bowen Island should see New Vessels with the capacity of 110-118 vehicles (AEQ) by 2013. Here we are 19 yrs later with the MV Quinitsa - capacity 44 vehicles. Bowen Island is a little more promising at 100 vehicles with the Queen of Capilano. Any Crew who sail Route 6 know the issues and the Patrons - absolutely! The traffic congestion and sailing waits are patently unreasonable and about rear their ugly heads this Spring and Summer. Schedule for 2022; 1. Uplifting capacity on Route 5 by replacing The Cumberland (112) this Spring with the Salish Class (138). Increase in capacity 23% 2. Uplifting capacity on Route 5a Swartz Bay - Saturna Island (Population 350) by retiring (or spare) the Mayne Queen (58) and introducing the Cumberland (112). Increase in capacity 93% Low Season Monthly Stats for total vehicle movements - November 2021 and High Season - August 2021 1. Route 4 - 25,574 / 33,112 2. Route 6 - 20,093 / 30,440 3. Route 5 & 5a combined 22,334 / 30,489 Capacity uplift vessel wise for May 2022 1. Route 4 - 92 Vehicles - Skeena 2. Route 6 - 63 Vehicles - Quinsam 3. Route 5 & 5a - 138 + 112 = 250 Vehicles - Heron & Cumberland Salt Spring Population is somewhere between 10,600 and 11,500 for the Spring of 2022. Up from 8,000 in 1975 when a car park was carved out to accommodate approximately 45 cars at Vesuvius Bay. In October of 2021 BCF Media stated the MV Quinsam could adequately accommodate foreseen traffic until 2035 when its service life would be complete. Meanwhile the Analyst in 2003 predicted that the Vessel would end its service life in 2028 and MV Quinitsa in 2025. We are starting to think the Analyst in 2003 was pretty clever. If the Quinitsa & Quinsam were used on Route 6 it would provide an uplift of 107 vehicles every 2 hrs. Not quite 110 - 118 vehicles that was suggested 19 years ago but Patrons of this vital link to Mid Vancouver Island would be more than pleased with a similar service. BC Ferries' long term plan, or maybe more accurately, long term wish list, is for thirteen 'island class' vessels. According to a regional district rep, the plan involved two of those boats on route six. I can't remember the source for that. I can see two of those thirteen being placed at Fulford, given the constricted nature of the terminal and area. Two island class boats could mean departures every 45-50 minutes, given their quicker loading, which would actually mean a capacity increase from the Skeena. A fly in the ointment would be the election of a Liberal government in Victoria, which would send us back to minimal service levels and likely fare increases. Two boat service on any of the smaller routes is really expensive, and the Clark/Campbell regimes never showed that kind of commitment to coastal communities.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 30, 2022 18:01:23 GMT -8
Member "Explorer" uses the term "We" frequently in recent posts.
I don't know if this "We" means: - this forum in general - the general overall users of the BC Ferries system - the Southern Gulf Islands in general - Explorer and its family - Salt Spring Island specifically.
Just curious, where a recent post about Saturna Island traffic had an odd "We / Them" in it.
Thanks for any enlightenment.
Me (just me)
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Post by explorer on Jan 30, 2022 18:34:03 GMT -8
Low Light Mike,
I'm only one of the 1940 Petitioners on "The Fix for Six". The we is the 1940 who are Campaigning for proper service. I'm on Route 6 a minimum of once a week if not 3 times. Does that answer your question?
Cheers! Explorer.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 30, 2022 18:52:55 GMT -8
Low Light Mike, I'm only one of the 1940 Petitioners on "The Fix for Six". The we is the 1940 who are Campaigning for proper service. I'm on Route 6 a minimum of once a week if not 3 times. Does that answer your question? Cheers! Explorer. Yes, thanks very much
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 30, 2022 20:04:12 GMT -8
Could this thread be update to future discussions of Vancouver Island to Southern Gulf Island because this thread is going that way. But I personally think future of replacement for Skeena Queen will be an Intermediate class which can carry 135 to 150 vehicles which is similar to design of replacement for Queen of Capilano and Queen of Cumberland. I think if Island Class are selected for future of Swartz Bay - Fulford Harbour route, three vessel will be needed to help ease capacity.
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Post by explorer on Feb 2, 2022 0:28:57 GMT -8
Well, the Problem is two fold, the Parking Lot Containment Areas haven't been addressed since the Mid 70s. Fulford holds about 60 vehicles. The Skeena holds 92. In Peak Demand Sailings there's 32 Vehicles (640') lined up Fulford - Ganges Rd preventing 2 way traffic up to Beaver Pt Rd. When there's Peak Summer Demand it goes back as far as the Church. Our population was roughly 8,000 in the Mid 70's. This Spring probably 11,500. Adding a larger vessel with more capacity only exacerbates traffic gridlock and prevents 2 way traffic. The Parking Containment Areas needed to be expanded a decade a go to create 2 way traffic down to the Terminal. Negotiations with the adjacent Land Owner have failed a number of times. It seems BCF are willing to spend $100 Million on a New ferry but not $3 Million to create a properly sized parking lot.
The same holds true for Vesuvius. BCF has had the opportunity to buy the former Vesuvius Pub land on 3 occasions over the past decade to expand the Car Park. It currently holds 45 vehicles with the Quinsum coming down from Route 19 this Spring holding 63 vehicles, that means a minimum 18 vehicles are pushed out onto Vesuvius Bay Rd preventing 2 way traffic. Plus with the addition 1 or 2 Sailing waitings during peak Summer demand. In Crofton that means 25 cars backed up onto Chaplin St. from Third Wave Coffee to the West preventing 2 way traffic on Chaplin St.
The suggestion from the Patrons of Route 6, if we are not going to address and expand the parking lots over a 50 year period, the only way to clear the Roads to allow 2 way traffic on the Roadways, is to increase frequency.
On Route 6 the suggestion is an hourly sailing from Vesuvius and Crofton using the MV Quinsam and Quinitsa which provides an uplift of 107 vehicles every 2 hrs from each side. You basically put vehicles on the Ferries instead of the Roadways. That gives a 13% uplift capability over Fulford. With a large portion of the Population living on the North End of the Island. If you don't have a good reason to go to the Greater Victoria Area via Fulford, Vesuvius will be more convenient and efficient time wise. Currently Route 6 is the most cost effective Route in the Inter Island Network. When Peak Demand is over for the day, the one vessel is tied up for the evening. Yes a rafting/tie up situation would have to be created, most likely at Crofton. Traffic is up on Route 6 from June to October 2021 by 19% over the same period in 2019 (pre covid). With Route 6 being more efficient there's a feeling 15+ vehicles can be siphoned off Fulford's Route 4.
It attempts to mitigate the traffic congestion at all 3 Terminals and allows 2 way traffic once again.
Should I stop it there or tender the suggestion for Route 4? LOL...
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Post by explorer on Feb 2, 2022 11:48:36 GMT -8
"BC Ferries' long term plan, or maybe more accurately, long term wish list, is for thirteen 'island class' vessels. According to a regional district rep, the plan involved two of those boats on route six. I can't remember the source for that. I can see two of those thirteen being placed at Fulford, given the constricted nature of the terminal and area. Two island class boats could mean departures every 45-50 minutes, given their quicker loading, which would actually mean a capacity increase from the Skeena. A fly in the ointment would be the election of a Liberal government in Victoria, which would send us back to minimal service levels and likely fare increases. Two boat service on any of the smaller routes is really expensive, and the Clark/Campbell regimes never showed that kind of commitment to coastal communities."
All eyes are on Route 19 with the advent of the 2 New Island Class Vessels this Spring. The Plan I believe is service every 40 Min during Peak Demand 0700 -1900. Then tie up one vessel and run a single service in the evening when low demand kicks in. 1-12 Hr Shift & 2-8 Hr Shifts for Crew. Nanaimo & Gabriola have the same issues as Crofton and Salt Spring's Vesuvius Bay and Fulford Harbour, not enough Car Park Containment Areas and it spills out onto our Roadways preventing 2 way traffic. That's why they chose 2 smaller ferries over one 100 Vehicle Ferry. It's documented in their submission for funding to the Commission in the Fall of 2018.
The Fix for Route 6 is the exact model of the Program for Route 19, with a couple of differences. Using 2 - 40 year olde vessels that have straight forward ease of loading and with 1 hr turnaround times. It should be easier on Crews to maintain ontime performance. We take the vehicles and traffic gridlock of our Roadways and put them on the ferries using frequency. Should more traffic than envisioned be siphoned off Route 4, the interval frequency could possibly be ramped up to 40 min turnarounds with traffic demand.
This is the immediate Fix for Route 6 because both Vessels are available. In other words, it gives us immediate relief from Traffic Gridlock at Crofton, Vesuvius Bay and Fulford Harbour now. In talking with BCF 3 weeks ago the next tranche of Island Class Vessels will not be committed for until at least 2030. Then there was the comment from BC Ferries Media in October 2021 that the MV Quinsam should service us adequately until 2035. Route 6 hasn't been neglected all these years, some might say its been completely abandoned. That comment is patently unreasonably, given the data. Once we turn the corner on Omicron we are back to a Traffic Nightmare at all 3 Terminals.
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