MV Coho

[rt1commuter]

When I was very small, I remember being able to tell the difference between the Maggie's Horn and the Coho's horn. We lived pretty close to the inner harbor and we could always hear them come in. The end of the Maggie was a big blow to Victoria's harbor, the loss of the Coho would destroy any remaining vestige of the working harbor. It would be a terrible loss.

Silly question, but would it be too difficult or expensive the develop on top of the ferry terminal, and have a parkade style staging area? I suppose it would have to be high enough to accommodate commercial traffic, but is that really a problem? I just can't see why the city can't work around the ferry terminal.

[FNS]

Mar 27, 2009 0:43:02 GMT -8 rt1commuter said:

When I was very small, I remember being able to tell the difference between the Maggie's Horn and the Coho's horn. We lived pretty close to the inner harbor and we could always hear them come in. The end of the Maggie was a big blow to Victoria's harbor, the loss of the Coho would destroy any remaining vestige of the working harbor. It would be a terrible loss.

Silly question, but would it be too difficult or expensive the develop on top of the ferry terminal, and have a parkade style staging area? I suppose it would have to be high enough to accommodate commercial traffic, but is that really a problem? I just can't see why the city can't work around the ferry terminal.

I completely agree with you!

To arrive right into this harbour, and to see the Empress Hotel and other sights right out of the COHO's observatory, is something very special. She's a clean ship and a real asset to Victoria.

[Quatchi]

Mar 27, 2009 0:43:02 GMT -8 rt1commuter said:

Silly question, but would it be too difficult or expensive the develop on top of the ferry terminal, and have a parkade style staging area? I suppose it would have to be high enough to accommodate commercial traffic, but is that really a problem? I just can't see why the city can't work around the ferry terminal.

In my limited experience it would be quite practical to build a second use above a ferry terminal. Lots of buildings have parking below grade or some other use. I cant see it being much of an issue, you just need some sort of a use where they could afford to not have that below grade area. How much commercial traffic is there on the route? And anyways it wouldn't be dangerous cargo anyways so that is not an issue.

Yes it would be expensive for the city or blackball to undertake, but if a developer is going to do something big, it could be worked out quite satisfactorily I'd think. It would be very cool as well. Imagine if they had a big hotel or condo's and the ship would come in and there was a big deck with a restaurant overlooking the ship and the harbor.

Cheers,

[Kahloke]

Mar 27, 2009 12:59:53 GMT -8 Quatchi said:

How much commercial traffic is there on the route? And anyways it wouldn't be dangerous cargo anyways so that is not an issue.

It takes some commercial traffic as you can see in this photo:
www.pbase.com/bswanplsbo/image/106245986

[Nick]

From what I understand, the Coho is fairly popular with commercial traffic, since they don't charge for overheights.

I've never taken the Coho myself, but I'm downtown often enough to see that there's always a fair amount of commercial traffic sitting in the holding lanes.

[Northern Exploration]

Everytime I have taken the Coho there were a few trucks and motorhomes, vans etc. on board. The first time was with my grandfather and I only have vague memories of my mom being nervous as we rocked and rolled crossing the Strait. I think I have been on it a total of 5 times with one additional time in dispute as whether we went to Anacortes that trip or Port Angeles . I will post one of my pics of her later.

Sturdy little ship with the bare basics inside but a nice feel. Been 4 years since I have been on it but I would recommend eating before or after, as the snack bar is very basic. I mostly have taken her doing a circle route down the coast to Oregon and back up the interstate staying in Seattle then driving back across the border. The best part of her is the being able to stand in the bow and watch the ferry plow through the swells. With no stabilizers the prevaling currents in and out of Juan de Fuca Strait and a good wind, the ferry rolls side to side nicely.

[Northern Exploration]

Mar 27, 2009 12:59:53 GMT -8 Quatchi said:

Mar 27, 2009 0:43:02 GMT -8 rt1commuter said:

Silly question, but would it be too difficult or expensive the develop on top of the ferry terminal, and have a parkade style staging area? I suppose it would have to be high enough to accommodate commercial traffic, but is that really a problem? I just can't see why the city can't work around the ferry terminal.

In my limited experience it would be quite practical to build a second use above a ferry terminal. Lots of buildings have parking below grade or some other use. I cant see it being much of an issue, you just need some sort of a use where they could afford to not have that below grade area. How much commercial traffic is there on the route? And anyways it wouldn't be dangerous cargo anyways so that is not an issue.

Yes it would be expensive for the city or blackball to undertake, but if a developer is going to do something big, it could be worked out quite satisfactorily I'd think. It would be very cool as well. Imagine if they had a big hotel or condo's and the ship would come in and there was a big deck with a restaurant overlooking the ship and the harbor.

Cheers,

I presume they refuel at night on the US side or that would kibosh the overbuilding. The biggest challenge would be doing the construction without totally interrupting the ferry traffic. That adds time and cost.

The other issue would be what the zoning is for the property. To cover the cost of decking and fireproofing on the underneath for the trucks below, there would have to be a multi-story building/tower. In addition the structure to carry the building load and leave clearance for trucks turning would be substantial adding cost. There may not be zoning for a tower and the hotels across the street may object due to the blocked view. In large cities people sell off the air rights to lower rise buildings (zoned for 15 stories but only build 10 they can sell the 5 story rights to another building) but I doubt that has happened with the ferry terminal though.

Simply clearing the property and building up is much cheaper and easier, hence you don't need to build as high to recoup your investment and make your profit.

Last night I was at a community meeting at city hall in advance of a public meeting on Monday where a builder is presenting plans for a property a block away. The problem is the plot is zoned for and has a plaza/commercial (local stores), renowned fitness facility, and medical offices. He wants to replace that with two 33 story condo towers, far too much density for a neighbourhood of single family homes. So all the issues of development are very fresh in my mind.

[Kahloke]

You could probably build over the ferry holding lot, but I imagine it would have to be pretty open (ie. not a lot of walls around it) to keep air moving through there, and even at that, they may need some kind of ventilation system to evacuate the vehicle exhaust.

I'm quite certain Coho refuels on the Port Angeles side, but in the summertime she overnights in Victoria so they must have to refuel her during the day in PA. The rest of the year she ties up in PA for the night, so fueling could be done after hours at those times of the year.

They've done a lot to keep the Coho in good shape. I took her a few times last year and found her to be very clean, and in good condition. And, you could tell that they had just painted her during her maintenance/overhaul time at Todd. Yes, the decor is vintage 1959, but that's part of her charm. I'll probably take Coho sometime this year, so I'm anxious to see the Duty Free Store enhancements, and the work that they did at the Belleville Ave. Terminal.

[bcferryfan87]

Mar 27, 2009 0:43:02 GMT -8 rt1commuter said:

When I was very small, I remember being able to tell the difference between the Maggie's Horn and the Coho's horn. We lived pretty close to the inner harbor and we could always hear them come in. The end of the Maggie was a big blow to Victoria's harbor, the loss of the Coho would destroy any remaining vestige of the working harbor. It would be a terrible loss.

Silly question, but would it be too difficult or expensive the develop on top of the ferry terminal, and have a parkade style staging area? I suppose it would have to be high enough to accommodate commercial traffic, but is that really a problem? I just can't see why the city can't work around the ferry terminal.

Interesting replies here. A few thoughts:

The Maggie had a steam whistle; the VIP had a train like horn - man I want to find all this stuff I had; somewhere I have a tape recording of VIP arriving at Ogden 1987 or so; also I have at least one recording of Maggie as she came into Vic Harbour, blew the whistle at the marker boy just around by Fishermans wharf I guess its called; those are good memories going down there at noon and seeing the Chef and the Laurel point hotel staff bow to her;

The building above the Coho dock may work; I'm thinking of canada place in Van; the parking levels are underneath the hotel and cruiseship facility but obviously on top of the pier; you could probably do the same there at Belleville but there would have to be a plan (e.g. do you build in stages - put the COHO temporarily over to the Maggies old spot (west of there) where clipper comes in. I'm sure it can be done somehow.

I've been on coho once in 91 from Port Angeles; I don't remember a ton, but it is a nice ship, was in Sept Oct, and coming into the harbour was neat since I had never done that before (not riding Maggie ever). Standing right at Front in kinda neat.

[Kam]

I'll be taking a trip on her next weekend and will be sure to get some pictures!

[rt1commuter]

Heh, they could move the Coho to ships point temporarily. That would be cute.

[Koastal Karl]

I was down in the inner harbour today and was watching the Coho load. What was odd was that she had a tug by her bow which I have never seen before. I remember when I took the QPR from Port McNeil they had a tug holding the QPR in the dock and to me today with the Coho it looked like this tug was doing the same thing. The Coho backed out into the harbour with the tug on her bow the whole time till she finally left. The Coho was about 30 mins late arriving and leaving Victoria this afternoon. It was pretty blustery out and the strait looked quite choppy but anyone know why there would be a tug escorting the Coho? It was the Seaspan Foam tug. I just thought it was odd cause I have never seen that before with the Coho.

[Nick]

Does the Coho have bow thrusters? I honestly don't know...

If she does, perhaps it (or they) wasn't working, so they had a tug to assist with docking maneuvers. It could also explain why they were running late, since it would take extra time to maneuver at both ends, and they may have had a late departure due to troubleshooting the problem.

[Kam]

hmm.. i dont think she has a bow thruster... perhaps she was only running on a single drive motor?

[Low Light Mike]

Here's an article about the MV Coho.

www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20090505/news/305059988

By Paige Dickerson
Peninsula Daily News

PORT ANGELES -- Black Ball Ferry Line will celebrate the M.V. Coho in style on Saturday with a reunion of about 350 employees, Ryan Burles, CEO and president of the company, told the Port Angeles Regional Chamber of Commerce on Monday.

The chamber attracted about 70 people and started the luncheon by singing "Happy Birthday" to the Coho -- complete with a cake in shape of the ship.

The reunion will be in celebration of the maiden voyage of the ship on Dec. 29, 1959.

Since then the ship has missed six days because of engine failure and one day when crew were told not to run because of weather conditions.

"We could have run -- so we've never missed because the weather would have prevented us," Burles said.

For the future, the company is looking at building on what is already there, Burles said.

"We hadn't until recently thought about marketing and helping people understand tourism in the areas, but we are really working on building that," he said.

"We also are committed to providing affordable, reliable service between Port Angeles and Victoria, not only for our customers but also for employees for the next 50 years."

Providing affordable service is a challenge when competing against government-subsidized ferry systems such as BC Ferries and Washington State Ferries, he said.

"Because of that, we've always been lean and mean," he said.

He said that the company manages based on the family of employees who are committed to keeping the ship in pristine shape.

"Care of our employees has always been the core of our business," he said.

"I've always felt like I was part of a family here."

Although the June 1 deadline requiring all passengers to carry passports or enhanced driver's licenses to return to the United States is fast approaching, Burles said he doesn't anticipate many problems.

Meanwhile, the company is working with the Port of Port Angeles to renew the dock, Burles said.

"We are looking for government money to do that," he said.

"It is toward the end of its lifespan, and we would like to aesthetically improve it and make it something that will be respected."

Another challenge this month and in June will be the Hood Canal Bridge closure, Burles said.

He said he expects about a 20 percent passenger reduction.

"We expect that there is a good portion of people who it isn't that much further for, but those who might have taken the Kingston-Edmonds ferry, it might significantly impact them," he said.

Although the Coho is celebrating 50 years, the company is much older.

Black Ball was founded in 1816 by Charles H. Marshall, Rian Anderson, district manager in Port Angeles, said.

It became the first company to have regularly scheduled sailings across the Atlantic Ocean.

The company folded in 1878 when the steamships became faster than the clipper ships used by Black Ball.

Charles Peabody, Marshall's grandson, resurrected the family ship company under the name Alaska Steamship Co. in 1895.

It later changed its name to Puget Sound Navigation Co. with a subsidiary called the Black Ball Line.

Most of the company was sold to the Washington State Bridge and Toll Co., which eventually became Washington State Ferries, Anderson said.

Part of the company became BC Ferries in Canada, Anderson said.

"It is really interesting to know that Black Ball has played a part in the huge ferry industry we have today," Anderson said.

[Northern Exploration]

May 5, 2009 17:43:18 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

Here's an article about the MV Coho.

www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20090505/news/305059988

By Paige Dickerson
Peninsula Daily News

PORT ANGELES -- Black Ball Ferry Line will celebrate the M.V. Coho in style on Saturday with a reunion of about 350 employees, Ryan Burles, CEO and president of the company, told the Port Angeles Regional Chamber of Commerce on Monday.

The chamber attracted about 70 people and started the luncheon by singing "Happy Birthday" to the Coho -- complete with a cake in shape of the ship.

The reunion will be in celebration of the maiden voyage of the ship on Dec. 29, 1959.

Since then the ship has missed six days because of engine failure and one day when crew were told not to run because of weather conditions.

"We could have run -- so we've never missed because the weather would have prevented us," Burles said.

For the future, the company is looking at building on what is already there, Burles said.

"We hadn't until recently thought about marketing and helping people understand tourism in the areas, but we are really working on building that," he said.

"We also are committed to providing affordable, reliable service between Port Angeles and Victoria, not only for our customers but also for employees for the next 50 years."

Providing affordable service is a challenge when competing against government-subsidized ferry systems such as BC Ferries and Washington State Ferries, he said.

"Because of that, we've always been lean and mean," he said.

He said that the company manages based on the family of employees who are committed to keeping the ship in pristine shape.

"Care of our employees has always been the core of our business," he said.

"I've always felt like I was part of a family here."

Although the June 1 deadline requiring all passengers to carry passports or enhanced driver's licenses to return to the United States is fast approaching, Burles said he doesn't anticipate many problems.

Meanwhile, the company is working with the Port of Port Angeles to renew the dock, Burles said.

"We are looking for government money to do that," he said.

"It is toward the end of its lifespan, and we would like to aesthetically improve it and make it something that will be respected."

Another challenge this month and in June will be the Hood Canal Bridge closure, Burles said.

He said he expects about a 20 percent passenger reduction.

"We expect that there is a good portion of people who it isn't that much further for, but those who might have taken the Kingston-Edmonds ferry, it might significantly impact them," he said.

Although the Coho is celebrating 50 years, the company is much older.

Black Ball was founded in 1816 by Charles H. Marshall, Rian Anderson, district manager in Port Angeles, said.

It became the first company to have regularly scheduled sailings across the Atlantic Ocean.

The company folded in 1878 when the steamships became faster than the clipper ships used by Black Ball.

Charles Peabody, Marshall's grandson, resurrected the family ship company under the name Alaska Steamship Co. in 1895.

It later changed its name to Puget Sound Navigation Co. with a subsidiary called the Black Ball Line.

Most of the company was sold to the Washington State Bridge and Toll Co., which eventually became Washington State Ferries, Anderson said.

Part of the company became BC Ferries in Canada, Anderson said.

"It is really interesting to know that Black Ball has played a part in the huge ferry industry we have today," Anderson said.

The half dozen or so times I have been on the Coho I have always been impressed by the fine shape they keep her in. Paint always fresh, insides always very clean, decks not bubbled too badly, and everything seemingly well maintained. The inside was never at the cusp of fashion but had that retro old fashioned ferry feel to it.

It would be interesting to know how many more years the ship has in her. I would imagine at some point standards are going to pass the capability and economics of modifying her.

[Neil]

May 6, 2009 6:43:34 GMT -8 Northern Exploration said:

It would be interesting to know how many more years the ship has in her. I would imagine at some point standards are going to pass the capability and economics of modifying her.

I've often wondered that myself. No matter how well maintained she is, she's fifty years old.

The Coho seems to have been part of the bequest that Lois Acheson made to Oregon State University a few years back, and I wonder where the money would be found to replace her once the time comes. No doubt the ferry operation is profitable, but surely no university is going to invest the huge sum necessary to replace the vessel when it would take so long to recoup their investment. Black Ball is a fairly lean company, and perhaps this is a business that carries on as long as no massive outlay of capital is necessary... as in a new boat.

[Mill Bay]

A used replacement boat for the Coho would be a long shot, at the best. They may have to look the world over, because of the specific operational requirements of the Coho: namely, the side-berthing and loading in Victoria harbor. They can't really just stick one of the fat, square stern Euro-style ferries in that berth, and I don't know if any other ferry companies in the world use side loading anymore (at least not in the same style).

If they are going to look for a semi-new, partly used ship to replace the Coho in a few years, I would have already started looking if I were them.

[whidbeyislandguy]

May 6, 2009 16:00:26 GMT -8 @4roads said:

May 6, 2009 13:15:02 GMT -8 Neil said:

I've often wondered that myself. No matter how well maintained she is, she's fifty years old.

The Coho seems to have been part of the bequest that Lois Acheson made to Oregon State University a few years back, and I wonder where the money would be found to replace her once the time comes. No doubt the ferry operation is profitable, but surely no university is going to invest the huge sum necessary to replace the vessel when it would take so long to recoup their investment. Black Ball is a fairly lean company, and perhaps this is a business that carries on as long as no massive outlay of capital is necessary... as in a new boat.

Agree there. The Coho despite looking like she's well cared for
will be at the end of her useful service life I'd say within 10 years.

50 years is probably 80 in people years.

Rather than going for a new ferry FOB ("Fresh out of The Box"),
Black Ball would probably start looking for a replacement, perhaps a relatively new ferry.

If I were part of their Fleet Operations Management (they have only one vessel), I'd start looking now to prevent a panic look later on, since now would be good so there's lots of time to
inspect potential purchases, and perhaps have one or two
taken out for a test sail.

I'd be looking for something similar to the Coho, not nessesarily
a double ender, but would need to be attractive to passenger since the Coho is more of a connector, tourist route than it is
an essential transportation route compared to routes in Washington and here on The Coast.

Well Black Ball might not be big but they are fine when it comes to making a profit. Not something either BCF OR WSF can say. They also tent not to say much about their ideas for the future. Lets not forget that they have looked at do other routes but they aren't aloud to "compete" with either Government funded ferry system. I know that it is on the books in Washington State, I'd imagine it would be also in BC.

Far as being replaced, who knows? I still think she has time in her, being as how she has only missed 6 days in 50 years, that is something neither of the other two systems can say about their boats.

[Kahloke]

If they are interested in building a new vessel, perhaps Elliott Bay Design Group can come up with something similar to the "Alaska Class Ferry" designs which they are currently working on. Just like Coho and the current Alaska ferries, the new boats will have side loading up towards the bow. Here's a link to the Alaska Class project for anyone who is interested:
www.dot.state.ak.us/amhs/alaska_class/index.shtml
If you go to the "Documents" link, and pull up "Design Report #4", it has a section view drawing and car deck plan view of what a 60-car Alaska ferry could look like. Just like Island Home, it has an offset casing - Elliott Bay Design sure loves that layout!

A Coho replacement would have to hold a lot more cars than 60 for it to be effective, but it's food for thought.

[Mill Bay]

Wait a minute... They're not allowed to expand service to other routes? Wow!

Doesn't that go against all the notions of free enterprise and what-not? What do they class that as: unfair competition from the private sector? Isn't that what they want here in BC, though? To have other operators to contract out the routes to? It's more likely a case of Black Ball not wanting the piecemeal, isolated and non-profitable routes which are the only ones BCFerries is offering to contract out.

Also, the Elliot Bay designs look good, but why is Alaska looking at such small vehicle capacity. That design is likely not for the mainline vessels I would imagine. But what is with those off-center casings? It looks very odd, but I'm wondering if the design consideration has anything to do with operating procedures on the cardeck, allowing more space for maneuvering large vehicles. That could also make sense for the Island Home, so that large vehicles don't get caught in the corners near each end of the the cardeck. Also, no square Euro-style sterns in those designs. Either you don't really need a square stern to be hip and modern these days, or AMHS isn't willing to or able to update their infrastructure to line up alongside the other ferry systems of the world.

[Northern Exploration]

It is normal in sales of business assets to have some non-compete clause. So I presume that part of the original conditions for sale was that Black Ball couldn't turn around and set up competing ferry runs.

I don't recall the details but when Blackball was bought out, some money would have changed hands. If that money was invested and some still held intact, this would be a substantial amount today and could easily become a chunk of cash paid for a portion of the new ferry. That is if all the cash wasn't taken out of the company.

A solid company with a proven service and consistent customers, would like attract financing very easily. Especially if the University (that would be asset rich) is involved at all in the role as some guarantee. A ship with a long life and with steady revenue would be very attractive to lendors (or even investors such as pension funds).

In the news and similar but not exactly the same, is the non-compete clause the Maple Leafs have with the NHL to not establish an NHL team within 100kms. That is easily got around with $$$ and if Ballsillie is successful at his latest end run around Bettman, then it may come down to that to smooth the final hurtles. Hamilton where he is interested in moving the Coyotes at least temporarily is well within that distance and Buffalo is just outside of it. Despite their non-winning ways, the sky high ticket prices, and difficulty getting tickets, the Leafs are the most valuable franchise in the league.

Similar with franchises. If you buy a White Spot or Keg franchise, you have a guaranteed territory that is yours. That means that the company can't sell another one or establish a corporate store, a block away and put you out of business (this happens all the time in losely worded franchise agreements and is a tactic some companies use to get rid of bad franchisees). There are all sorts of other side conditions of course.

Non-compete clauses for individuals that are given severence or sign-one as part of an employment contract are much shorter in term than in perpetuity. Even if an employee signs one that says they won't work for a competitor or set up a similar business, courts don't recognize them beyond a certain time period as the individual has to be able to make a living. Depending on details and the industry, one year is not unusual. Not so with companies, these agreements can have very long legs.

[Neil]

May 7, 2009 8:02:24 GMT -8 Northern Exploration said:

It is normal in sales of business assets to have some non-compete clause. So I presume that part of the original conditions for sale was that Black Ball couldn't turn around and set up competing ferry runs.

I doubt that that is the case here. The province supposedly went to Black Ball before the purchase and asked if they were willing to invest in infrastructure to improve their BC services for the future, and received a less than satisfactory answer. So, chances are very slight that there was any danger that the company would have wanted to jump back into the market and compete with a much deeper pocketed public operator.

The company the government bought was Black Ball Ferries, Ltd. The Coho was operated by Black Ball Transport, which was not a part of the purchase. I'm not sure about the legal distinction, but that may also remove any stipulations made with the purchased company, if indeed there were any. In the few articles I've read where today's Black Ball officials are quoted about expanding operations, a non-compete clause has never come up.

[EGfleet]

May 7, 2009 11:56:49 GMT -8 Neil said:

May 7, 2009 8:02:24 GMT -8 Northern Exploration said:

It is normal in sales of business assets to have some non-compete clause. So I presume that part of the original conditions for sale was that Black Ball couldn't turn around and set up competing ferry runs.

I doubt that that is the case here. The province supposedly went to Black Ball before the purchase and asked if they were willing to invest in infrastructure to improve their BC services for the future, and received a less than satisfactory answer. So, chances are very slight that there was any danger that the company would have wanted to jump back into the market and compete with a much deeper pocketed public operator.

The company the government bought was Black Ball Ferries, Ltd. The Coho was operated by Black Ball Transport, which was not a part of the purchase. I'm not sure about the legal distinction, but that may also remove any stipulations made with the purchased company, if indeed there were any. In the few articles I've read where today's Black Ball officials are quoted about expanding operations, a non-compete clause has never come up.

Black Ball Transport was not part of Black Ball Ferries, Ltd. It was a seperate company formed well before Captain Peabody took the company to Canada.

It had been part of the larger Black Ball Line/Puget Sound Navigation Co, but Acheson bought out that branch well before PSN sold to Washington State and Peabody took what was left of his fleet and formed Black Ball Ferries Ltd.

[Northern Exploration]

Thanks for clarifying that guys.