MV Coho

[Koastal Karl]

www.canada.com/chtv/vancouverisland/index.html

This has been brought up before about moving the Coho out of the inner harbour. As you can see in the video options to move it would be Ogden Point, Swartz Bay which is interesting and also the WSF Sidney dock. I think it is best to leave the Coho where it is now. Ogden Point wouldent work as it is too exposed to the winds and conflicts with the Cruise Ships in the summer. And Sidney and Swartz Bay, hmm what you you guys think???

[Electric Thunderbird]

It should stay put. It works well there. There is a reason why it's maxed out all the time in the summer. There is a lot of passenger traffic with it as well. It would hurt local businesses. It's just plain wrong to force it out in the name of beauty.

[lest69]

I couldn't believe they were even suggesting Sidney/Swartz Bay! That would almost double the sailing time, plus passengers would have to make a 30 minute drive south back to Victoria. If Black Ball wanted an easy way to kill their business, this would be the way to go. The only viable options are either Ogden Point (the PMIII's berth is now used regularly by cruise ships), or stay at the Belleville terminal. I'm curious what Tourism Victoria thinks about getting rid of the Coho? Hundreds of thousands of passengers a year? Nah, we don't need their business...

[BreannaF]

There's another discussion of this in the most recent postings in the thread "BCF to Manage Town of Sidney Ferry Terminal" at ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=bcferriesnews&action=display&thread=1170794676&page=4

Sidney really would be too far out of the way, you'd think. There's also an issue of the dock there needing to be modified to fit the Coho, if they did choose to go that way.

Passenger ferries should be able to get passengers as close to the Inner Harbour as possible, to get them where they can spend all those tourist dollars quickly and efficiently. Auto drivers can drive a bit to get to town, but at 30 km away, that could be asking a lot of people to make their way back to Victoria.

[stvfishy]

After almost 50 years, the present terminal still looks and feels like a temporary landing. Does anyone know the details of the present ownership/title/lease arrangement? Here's hoping they find a suitable site nearby.

The push to develop the current site:
www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=b0c0159d-1e60-4dbc-b6cb-3607ba59cefc&k=94008

is a necessity. Too bad accommodations could not be made for the Coho.

[Neil]

This is another example of the modern mindset which holds that all of our urban waterfront should be devoted to condos, parks, and walkways where people can stroll under hanging baskets sipping lattes. We've gone from one extreme, where forty years ago the public had virtually no access to much of our waterfront, to the other, today, where any sort of real business or industry detracts from the scenery, and the civilized ambience.

The Coho is an important part of downtown Victoria's economy. To bring it into Sidney or Swartz Bay, with the vastly increased sailing time, is nonsense. The people touting this grandiose redevelopment need to get their heads out of their nether regions and make sure Black Ball is accomodated right in the heart of Victoria, where it belongs, even if a car ferry lot doesn't quite fit the decor.

[Low Light Mike]

Nanaimo Daily News ran a silly story on August 18, 2007, where the Nanaimo Port Authority suggested that it "would be more than willing to help Black Ball Transport set up operations here if the company was interested".

Yes, Nanaimo's newspaper had a story about the possibility of the Coho ferry running from Nanaimo to Port Angeles. And we thought that us nerds were the only unrealistic ones.

The other irony from the story is the seeming willingness of the Nanaimo Port Authority to help out a private ferry company. I wonder how HarbourLynx was treated?

[Low Light Mike]

Here's another news story, from Aug.18th Victoria Times Colonist:
-----------------------------
www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=871996a2-d6c4-4966-97fe-fdddb40983c9&k=90062

Coho's potential move worries Port Angeles
Task force on Inner Harbour redevelopment suggests ferry should tie up elsewhere

Carolyn Heiman
Times Colonist

Saturday, August 18, 2007

ON BOARD THE MV COHO -- Passengers Bob Schmidt and Tom Hammon sat on opposite sides of a table here yesterday talking about a suggestion that the ship they were on has outgrown Victoria's Inner Harbour and may have to move.

"Change is inevitable," said Schmidt, on his way back to Portland, Ore., after a four-day road trip to Victoria with friends.

If the Coho's terminal was relocated it wouldn't influence whether he returned to the city.

"But the Coho has just as much right to be in the harbour as any other boat," argued Hammon, who was travelling with Schmidt.

Then, reflecting on the harbourside meal they shared at a Victoria restaurant before they left, Schmidt allowed that the harbour activity -- the comings and goings of planes, the Coho and other boats -- was a key selling point of his experience in Victoria. "Otherwise you'd just be looking at water."

Schmidt and Hammon reflected the views of many Coho passengers asked about how they would feel if the ship, which has docked in the Inner Harbour since 1959, moved away from the site, as suggested by a city task force examining how the harbour could be redeveloped.

No one on the ferry seemed outraged about the proposal. Nor would it affect whether they came to the city. Most of them came by car. But it seemed a little "magic" would be taken away from their adventure.

The word "magic" comes up time and time again when people talk about the experience of the 104-metre vessel rounding the bend near the Laurel Point Hotel and sounding one long and two short throaty blasts to herald its arrival.

"At night it is even more magical," says Capt. Elmer Grasser, a 24-year veteran of Black Ball Transport. Grasser confesses to still loving the sight of the Inner Harbour splayed out each time he sees it.

Mary Walker, a Portland, Ore., resident has visited Victoria eight times in the last five years and "loves coming into the harbour." Still, if the Coho moved, she'd continue coming downtown because she views Victoria as the perfect place for her and her girlfriends to visit. "It's safe, and you can park the car and walk everywhere."

While Victorians seem to see only the large cracked asphalt parking lot and aging terminals, its visitors appear willing to overlook the flaws, overwhelmed as they are by the stunning views of The Empress hotel, CP Terminal and legislative buildings.

"What? Victoria thinks its harbour is ugly?" commented a member of the Port Angeles media. "It the city anorexic?"

If the Coho left the harbour there would be "no real ships to see other than the multimillion-dollar rich boys's ones that are parked for a week," said Coho employee Rodney Gardner.

Paul and Mary Salzinger and their two children did what many visitors do: take a driving loop from the Portland/Seattle area up to Vancouver and over to Victoria and then back to their home country via Port Angeles. The ferries, including the Coho, were a vital part of their transportation link.

Looking back on their holiday, Mary says they'll be back to Victoria "which is charming," but won't bother the next time with Vancouver because "it's too busy."

Meanwhile, Paul suggests keeping the Coho but getting rid of the noisy float planes that marred his enjoyment of the harbour.

Over in Port Angeles, news of the ferry's possible relocation is hitting them hard. An estimated 20 per cent to 25 per cent of overnight hotel stays are attributed to people like the Salzingers who make a road trip that includes a ferry leg.

Port Angeles Mayor Karen Rogers is asking to meet Victoria Mayor Alan Lowe to discuss the idea floated by the task force and now in the hands of the provincial government.

Rogers, who loves "to runaway to Victoria for a getaway" says she thinks Victoria is underestimating the marketing for the city the Coho does with its grand entrance.

Recently, when lobbying in Washington, D.C. against the proposed passport requirements being talked about in

the U.S., a congressman from Tennessee instantly connected her hometown as the one that has the ferry to Victoria.

"He didn't say the ferry to B.C. or Vancouver Island. He right way associated it with Victoria."

You can't buy that kind of advertising, she says, and wonders if that connection would remain if the Coho moved.

She is urging the city to look at the complete economic ramifications of a relocation.

Teresa Pierce, who works for the city of Port Angeles, notes that every Grade 5 or 6 student in the area makes a visit to Victoria at the end of their school year as a reward. The kids get off downtown, go the Royal B.C. Museum, Royal London Wax Museum, Undersea Gardens and home again. Would they do that if they had to rent a bus? she asks.

Pierce knows many Port Angeles residents who like to take a day-trip to Victoria.

Rogers says Victorians should know this just by seeing what she terms "the march down Douglas and Government [streets]" when the sound of the Coho summons its next load of passengers to get on board.

"You hear the horn sound and you cannot miss the dynamic shift," said Rogers, describing daytrippers hurrying back to the Coho. "It's the shift of the economy coming and then leaving."

[e-mail]

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2007
=========

[BreannaF]

Oh, my..... so many fellow Portlanders in one article....

I find it really difficult to believe that there is someone out there who really thinks that passengers from the Coho are something that Victoria doesn't need. And, I doubt that the presence of the ship itself in the harbour is really the issue. There are passenger ferries, tour boats, seaplanes, and all sorts of distractions out there. It's the whole reason that people are there. So the biggest issue is really the auto loading area and the space it takes. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the passenger ferry terminal or the area where the planes load & unload.

With that said, a bit of brainstorming:

- If it were really a matter of just moving the auto holding area, the Coho could land somewhere else nearby with not a lot of problems. But it does carry quite a few passengers. Options: Shuttle bus to the harbour. Or, what about staging the vehicles a few blocks away, then when it is time to load, finding a way to parade the vehicles to the dock, where there would be a much smaller loading area. Or, something like that.

- If the space were best to be used for a hotel, is there some possibility they could design it with ferry parking/holding area on the ground level? Probably not, but it would be interesting if it came up as a possibility.

- If the terminal is upgraded, moved, abandoned for a move to Sidney, whatever; there is also an issue in the back of my mind of the long-term prognosis of the Coho itself. It is, after all, an older ship and if we are looking at long term plans for where it is going to be docking, it may be time to start thinking about long-term plans of where a replacement ship would be docking. If the Coho currently doesn't fit in any dock other than its own, would the future ship fit in the current or newly upgraded ones?

There needs to be some solutions, but it looks like, for now, that responsibility is just being passed off from one group to another.

[Retrovision]

lest69 said:

If Black Ball wanted an easy way to kill their business, this would be the way to go.

My thinking exactly.

bryank said:

Passenger ferries should be able to get passengers as close to the Inner Harbour as possible, to get them where they can spend all those tourist dollars quickly and efficiently.

Give me a single ferry route in BC or WA that doesn't accept foot passengers and I'll agree with you. Isn't the trend in travel options offered these days leaning towards getting people out of their cars, not the seemingly opposite notion of thinking of them as lesser passengers on ferries than with-vehicle travellers are considered?

stvfishy said:

After almost 50 years, the present terminal still looks and feels like a temporary landing.

I don't know about that terminal / side of the Inner Harbour, but Black Ball has only been serving the terminal they're presently at for a few decades - could someone clarify when they left their original terminal? Possibly in a similar move to "clean-up" the look of the Inner Harbour, they were moved from their quite well established and not at all temporary location - where the concrete infrastructure of their facilities can still be seen to this day, near the Empress Hotel, to their current location on the other side of the Inner Harbour...


www.bcrootsareshowing.fotopic.net/p43824252.html
Pre-1980s Inner Harbour as can be seen at the former CPR steamship terminal now Wax Museum


www.bcrootsareshowing.fotopic.net/p43824260.html
Former Black Ball terminal - Note the concrete infrastructure of the former terminal building in the background and the lines of where the berth's side-loading ramp used to be located in the foreground

[BreannaF]

tsawwassenterminal said:

Give me a single ferry route in BC or WA that doesn't accept foot passengers and I'll agree with you. Isn't the trend in travel options offered these days leaning towards getting people out of their cars, not the seemingly opposite notion of thinking of them as lesser passengers on ferries than with-vehicle travellers are considered?

Wait! Wait! You misunderstand! (But perhaps because I didn't write clearly enough.)

I'm a transit commuting person at home who is pretty vocal in trying to get all the transit options working together as best as possible. Beyond that, my wife has some mobility problems, and we have found out over the years just how inconvenient it can be to get from the Victoria Express to any affordable (meaning without a view of the harbour) hotel in the downtown area. (Hey, we're not rich here!)

I not only think it would be a bad idea to move the Coho to Sidney or something similar, I also think it would be inadvisable to move it too far from where it is right now. If in the name of progress, if it ends up a few blocks away, or in another part of the harbour, it may need to happen. There just needs to be a way, one way or the other, to get the foot passengers where they want to go -- on the Coho or otherwise.

[Retrovision]

bryank said:

tsawwassenterminal said:

Give me a single ferry route in BC or WA that doesn't accept foot passengers and I'll agree with you. Isn't the trend in travel options offered these days leaning towards getting people out of their cars, not the seemingly opposite notion of thinking of them as lesser passengers on ferries than with-vehicle travellers are considered?

Wait! Wait! You misunderstand! (But perhaps because I didn't write clearly enough.)

I'm a transit commuting person at home who is pretty vocal in trying to get all the transit options working together as best as possible. Beyond that, my wife has some mobility problems, and we have found out over the years just how inconvenient it can be to get from the Victoria Express to any affordable (meaning without a view of the harbour) hotel in the downtown area. (Hey, we're not rich here!)

I not only think it would be a bad idea to move the Coho to Sidney or something similar, I also think it would be inadvisable to move it too far from where it is right now. If in the name of progress, if it ends up a few blocks away, or in another part of the harbour, it may need to happen. There just needs to be a way, one way or the other, to get the foot passengers where they want to go -- on the Coho or otherwise.

Thanks for clarifying, though I can sound more harsh than I mean to when trying to make a point.

I agree that a means to get to the Inner Harbour directly on a ferry as a foot passenger is necessary to maintain, but I also realize the precedent that the Coho, let alone Black Ball, has on the Inner Harbour and I steadfastly argue that it should in fact be getting the treatment in the plans that foot-passenger only ferries have been given.

Though I have no idea if it even remotely applies here, I seem to remember something in law class about prescription...
www.answers.com/topic/prescription?cat=biz-fin

4. Law. The process of acquiring title to property by reason of uninterrupted possession of specified duration. Also called positive prescription.

[Barnacle]

Well, I confess, I wasn't aware that the Coho's terminal had moved. According to Google Earth, the terminal I thought they were still using was on Wharf Street (the terminal shown above in Graham's post). So Belleville is across the harbour where the CPR ship is tied up?

[Deleted]

Yes the Coho lands now just in front of the ex-CPR dock / Princess Marguerite terminal. The Wharf Street terminal was also where the Chinook docked when she was on the Seattle - Victoria route. I have no idea how long it has been since they haven't used the Wharf Street terminal. When I first rode the Coho as a child in the early 80's they were using the Belleville terminal. Can anyone confirm when they moved over there? Personally I think they should have kept using that terminal maybe they wouldn't have to be searching for a new one now.

[Northern Exploration]

Good idea Bryan about building above the parking lot to make better use of the space in the harbour. I wonder though if the disruption in the current lot while construction is underway will cause a problem.

Does anyone know if the Coho will be compliant with any new regulations that will be coming into effect the next few years? If she isn't then the whole discussion may be mute. Does the University still have control over the company with the death of the owner? I wonder how deep their pockets are for modifiying the Coho or for purchasing another vessel.

Personally I don't think moving the Coho to somewhere in Esquimault (not sure where there is room though) or near the Cruise Ship terminals near Ogden Point (again not sure about the space issue), would adversely effect income considerably. Transit service would be sufficient to carry foot passengers or even via a shuttle bus. I would think that moving the Coho to Sidney may have more of an impact.

The land around the harbour is extremely valuable and I would think that the economics of the situation will win out in the long run.

[Retrovision]

Part of the Coho's appeal is the ability to not have to bring your vehicle because of the proximity of the terminal to downtown Victoria - which makes it especially appealing to the growing seniors market - and this would be eliminated by any move out of the Inner Harbour. Personally I am quite surprised that the idea of integrating atleast part of a terminal into a compound below the new development hasn't once been mentioned publically as a possibility.

I'm also a little surprised that no one here has brought up the proposal from a long while ago for a new terminal of some sort at the historic and long-abandoned buildings beside the Johnson Street Bridge...


But back to the land in question, here's some (8 new) photos that I happend to have taken the same day as the last BCFSI AGM in Victoria of former and current infrastructure being discussed
Found here: www.bcrootsareshowing.fotopic.net/Victoria

Including:

Remaining original berth infrastructure
www.bcrootsareshowing.fotopic.net/p44294090.html


Ageing current terminal docks - Black Ball is to the left of this photo
www.bcrootsareshowing.fotopic.net/p44294096.html


Current Black Ball berth
www.bcrootsareshowing.fotopic.net/p44294091.html

[Mill Bay]

Is it possible that they could consider Esquimalt harbour? Most of the area there that would be feasible for a ferry berth is used by the naval base there. Maybe the navy would let the Coho have space... give it an honorary commision as a Canadian naval vessel.

[CN2972South]

barnacle said:

So Belleville is across the harbour where the CPR ship is tied up?

Yes, currently the Coho uses part of the old CPR dock.

[Dane]

millbay said:

Maybe the navy would let the Coho have space...

They don't have enough space for themselves

[BreannaF]

tsawwassenterminal said:

I'm also a little surprised that no one here has brought up the proposal from a long while ago for a new terminal of some sort at the historic and long-abandoned buildings beside the Johnson Street Bridge...

Would there be room for a holding area at that location? It does seem kind of logical. (Near the train!)

[Retrovision]

And the head of the group figuring out who will soon have exclusive access to this lucrative coastline for ferry services is with the passenger-only ferry services that are being given priority? This smacks of a certain RAD (Cappie) chooser that worked for a certain Brazilian company in the past who who is now in a prominent position at BCFSI. But I drigress

[Mill Bay]

tsawwassenterminal said:

And the head of the group figuring out who will soon have exclusive access to this lucrative coastline for ferry services is with the passenger-only ferry services that are being given priority? This smacks of a certain RAD (Cappie) chooser that worked for a certain Brazilian company in the past who who is now in a prominent position at BCFSI. But I drigress

It's always best not to think about things like that... it'll only give you nightmares.

[Retrovision]

millbay said:

tsawwassenterminal said:

And the head of the group figuring out who will soon have exclusive access to this lucrative coastline for ferry services is with the passenger-only ferry services that are being given priority? This smacks of a certain RAD (Cappie) chooser that worked for a certain Brazilian company in the past who who is now in a prominent position at BCFSI. But I drigress

It's always best not to think about things like that... it'll only give you nightmares.

Exactly my attitude, thanks for putting it so concisely, Mill Bay. As my dad puts it, and I've learned well to listen to, "don't sweat the small stuff," i.e. Do what you can and don't waste your energy on what you are not able to make relatively significant contributions to.

[Low Light Mike]

Here's a news article from Port Angeles, re the Coho:
(and yes, the media-writer has a funny name ;D)

======================

www.peninsuladailynews.com:80/article/20071008/NEWS/710080303

PA mayor plans meeting with Victoria officials

By Randy Trick, Peninsula Daily News

PORT ANGELES - Mayor Karen Rogers has organized a meeting between civic leaders here and from Victoria on Friday, part of which will be onboard the MV Coho and part over lunch on the Port Angeles waterfront.

She said the meeting will be a "long overdue conversation" about the future of the two cities connected by a ferry route that may be in the jeopardy.

Rogers and members of the City Council are expected to take the 8:20 a.m. ferry from Port Angeles to Victoria, pick up Mayor Alan Lowe and members of his council, and ride the 10:30 a.m. ferry back to Port Angeles.

The group has scheduled a two-hour lunch at The Landing restaurant, then the Canadians will catch the 2 p.m. ferry back to Vancouver Island.

There is a lot to fit into the brief time the leaders will have together, Rogers said.

On the Friday morning sailing to Port Angeles, the civic leaders will be able to ask Black Ball Transportation, the private ferry's owners, about the history of the MV Coho, its role in regional transportation and its business.

Whether the large vehicle and passenger ferry will be able to continue docking in Victoria's Inner Harbour is in doubt considering current plans for revitalization of the harbor's south side from a task force commissioned by Lowe.

The plans, which were made public in early August, show the Coho terminal and adjacent car-truck gathering area would be replaced with a high-rise hotel and a new passenger ferry landing.

The Canadian Pacific building, next door to the Coho terminal, which now houses the Royal London Wax Museum, would be renovated with restaurants and other tourist attractions.

"Not only is it important to us, it should be very important to them," Rogers said.

"It puts $500,000 in their town, a tremendous value to Victoria. I'm not sure they understand the economic impact if the Coho moves to Sidney."

Sidney, where the Washington State Ferries route from Anacortes ends, is about 16 miles to the northeast of Victoria.

Rogers said she wants her meeting on Friday to be about more than ferries.

She hopes to discuss economic issues, such as capitalizing on the 2010 winter Olympics to be held in Vancouver and getting more visitors to take "two-nation vacations" - efforts that could lead to an "economic shared strategy between the two cities," she said.

She also wants an update on Victoria's efforts to stop dumping its untreated wastewater into the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

"Here we are spending millions and millions of dollars for water quality and salmon restoration, and here we have raw sewage," Rogers said.

As of this weekend, Rogers said she was not sure which council members may join her, but she did not think a quorum would ride the ferry with her.

If there is a quorum at the lunch meeting, the council would have to declare that in advance.

=============================
Reporter Randy Trick can be reached at 360-417-3537 or at [e-mail].

Last modified: October 07. 2007 9:00PM
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[Electric Thunderbird]

How is the COHO going to be able to use Sidney, as it needs a side loading dock on one end of the run?