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Post by northwesterner on Jul 10, 2014 0:38:28 GMT -8
If it's closed off to public access, then how the hell do people access the galleys? I can't imagine the thought of no galley access on a ferry as large as the Kaleetan. On the Supers, they're up top to begin with! That makes absolutely no sense at all. There's no galley service in the winter in the San Juans. Thus, no need to access the galley. A few years ago I rode the Hyak (I think) off season. The galley was closed, but the only way to restrict access to that area was to lock the doors into the upper seating area. I presume the chains and signs were placed across the interior access stairs; but the exterior stairs were left open. As Barnacle mentioned, with the newish progressive staffing level certificates; WSF can reduce the number of deckhands needed if the upper deck is closed. The galley isn't open anyways, so now WSF can physically close off the upper deck. Of course - what are they doing on the Tokitae at Mukilteo. Presumably they are using the chain and sign method to close the staircases at this time. |
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 10, 2014 4:25:03 GMT -8
If it's closed off to public access, then how the hell do people access the galleys? I can't imagine the thought of no galley access on a ferry as large as the Kaleetan. On the Supers, they're up top to begin with! That makes absolutely no sense at all. There's no galley service in the winter in the San Juans. Thus, no need to access the galley. A few years ago I rode the Hyak (I think) off season. The galley was closed, but the only way to restrict access to that area was to lock the doors into the upper seating area. I presume the chains and signs were placed across the interior access stairs; but the exterior stairs were left open. As Barnacle mentioned, with the newish progressive staffing level certificates; WSF can reduce the number of deckhands needed if the upper deck is closed. The galley isn't open anyways, so now WSF can physically close off the upper deck. Of course - what are they doing on the Tokitae at Mukilteo. Presumably they are using the chain and sign method to close the staircases at this time. Thank you. This covers everything I was going to say. And once again, Steve, I have to remind you (gently, of course) that the Supers work other routes than Bremerton.  |
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 10, 2014 13:28:48 GMT -8
Yes, because closing off an entire deck, thus eliminating half the original design purpose of that class of ferry, makes soo much sense *rolls eyes*
Closing off the top deck of a ferry, especially an OUTDOOR PROMENADE-STYLE deck like what is on the Supers, goes against EVERY BIT of the 'TOURISM' aspect Washington State Ferries themselves advertise.
As a tax paying citizen who did not request nor endorses these changes, I would be livid. When I go on a ferry run, I don't do it just for the ferry fan aspect, I also do it because I enjoy the scenery - and two measly pickle-fork decks on either end are woefully inadequate.
I have friends who go up to the San Juans in the winter months and spend a large percentage of their trips on the sun deck, and I'm sure they'll be very displeased to learn that WSF is now closing off the top decks of the Supers, for none of the right reasons at all.
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 10, 2014 15:01:17 GMT -8
Yes, because closing off an entire deck, thus eliminating half the original design purpose of that class of ferry, makes soo much sense *rolls eyes* Closing off the top deck of a ferry, especially an OUTDOOR PROMENADE-STYLE deck like what is on the Supers, goes against EVERY BIT of the 'TOURISM' aspect Washington State Ferries themselves advertise. As a tax paying citizen who did not request nor endorses these changes, I would be livid. When I go on a ferry run, I don't do it just for the ferry fan aspect, I also do it because I enjoy the scenery - and two measly pickle-fork decks on either end are woefully inadequate. I have friends who go up to the San Juans in the winter months and spend a large percentage of their trips on the sun deck, and I'm sure they'll be very displeased to learn that WSF is now closing off the top decks of the Supers, for none of the right reasons at all. WSF has closed off the upper deck of the Supers during the winter months for the last two years. This is not a 'new' thing. I don't agree with it either, but we're pretty much stuck with it. |
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 10, 2014 15:57:00 GMT -8
The people who should be making the decision to close off the upper decks of the Supers should be the taxpaying and fare-paying patrons who pay to use and maintain them - and would surely like to utilize that space - not some guy writing schedules in an office @ WSF, much less the Coast Guard.
They cannot advertise themselves as the 'State's #1 Tourist Attraction' as they've done so for decades, and close off the key aspect of what makes the ferries a tourist destination - the upper promenade deck space. As a taxpayer who pays to use that space, I have every right to use it, and technically WSF is in the wrong for closing off access to it.
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Koastal Karl
Voyager 
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Jul 10, 2014 17:18:13 GMT -8
I think it's stupid also! That is why I like the Supers cause of there outside deck space! Can't they just close the inside and keep the outside open? Cause ibhave been in the San Juan's before in January and they had the galleys closed but the outside decks were open!
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Post by northwesterner on Jul 10, 2014 17:59:38 GMT -8
The people who should be making the decision to close off the upper decks of the Supers should be the taxpaying and fare-paying patrons who pay to use and maintain them - and would surely like to utilize that space - not some guy writing schedules in an office @ WSF, much less the Coast Guard. They cannot advertise themselves as the 'State's #1 Tourist Attraction' as they've done so for decades, and close off the key aspect of what makes the ferries a tourist destination - the upper promenade deck space. As a taxpayer who pays to use that space, I have every right to use it, and technically WSF is in the wrong for closing off access to it. Spare us the righteous indignation. The last few posts on your subject have been so over the top its unreal. I, like you, find the upper deck of the Super class to be hands down, the best place to be on a ferry, of any kind, operating in Washington State (or BC for that matter). But in the winter time, in the San Juan Islands, what is the average passenger load? There is virtually no tourist traffic, and even if the vessels sail with a full car deck they are jammed full of overheights (read: trucks making deliveries) and locals, often with just one person in the car. The big families going to a cabin, outdoors types going kayaking for the day, kids going to Camp Orkila ... the groups that fully utilize the passenger cabin, just aren't there. I would guess that the average sailing carries less than 200 passengers in the winter time. Are you suggesting that given the option to reduce staffing to match the passenger loads, WSF should run with full staff so a handful of people can stand outside on the upper promenade deck in cold, wet and windy weather? Really? I don't like the upper deck being closed on these vessels any time just as I don't like the upper deck being closed on the Tokitae. But I recognize it as a necessary evil when a vessel is placed on a route that does not need the full passenger cabin. Years ago I saw a Mariners game at the Kingdome. There were probably 10,000 people in attendance. I wanted to sit way up at the top row of the upper deck to see what is was like. Obviously, the seats weren't sold. An usher came along and chased us out. It wasn't a problem that we were sitting in seats we didn't buy. It was a problem because the computer showed no seats sold in that section, thus they didn't staff an usher, and they don't have a cleaning crew scheduled that night to clean that section. Therefore, because the staffing was not in place to support people sitting there, we had to move. The Kingdome was a public structure; I certainly didn't argue that it was my right to sit there as a tax payer. I'd save the outrage for a 5PM sailing from Colman Dock to Bremerton, where due to a no-show deckhand position the vessel would have to sail with closed upper deck and a restricted license. That truly is a problem. |
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Post by chokai on Jul 10, 2014 18:25:06 GMT -8
As I understand it two able bodied seaman needed to keep the top deck are going to "average" something like between $22 and $25 an hour before benefits. Over the 90 days of the winter schedule alone (assuming an 16 hour operating day) you'd save between $60 and 72 thousand dollars. Benefits usually are roughly 33% across most jobs meaning the savings could be as high as $95K. Across the fleet for the 4 supers and Tokitae that's a cool $350K-$470K. Chump change? That's roughly the annual dry-dock and inspection cost for Evergreen State.
You know as a tax payer and ferry rider I'd give up being able to go up top during the nasty part of the year on a lightly used run in a heart beat for a reserve boat. And you still have the nice forward shelter on the Supers if you want to get out and get some fresh air while still being shielded from the wind/rain. Tokitae doesn't have that.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 10, 2014 19:50:50 GMT -8
The people who should be making the decision to close off the upper decks of the Supers should be the taxpaying and fare-paying patrons who pay to use and maintain them - and would surely like to utilize that space - not some guy writing schedules in an office @ WSF, much less the Coast Guard. They cannot advertise themselves as the 'State's #1 Tourist Attraction' as they've done so for decades, and close off the key aspect of what makes the ferries a tourist destination - the upper promenade deck space. As a taxpayer who pays to use that space, I have every right to use it, and technically WSF is in the wrong for closing off access to it. Spare us the righteous indignation. The last few posts on your subject have been so over the top its unreal. I, like you, find the upper deck of the Super class to be hands down, the best place to be on a ferry, of any kind, operating in Washington State (or BC for that matter). But in the winter time, in the San Juan Islands, what is the average passenger load? There is virtually no tourist traffic, and even if the vessels sail with a full car deck they are jammed full of overheights (read: trucks making deliveries) and locals, often with just one person in the car. The big families going to a cabin, outdoors types going kayaking for the day, kids going to Camp Orkila ... the groups that fully utilize the passenger cabin, just aren't there. I would guess that the average sailing carries less than 200 passengers in the winter time. Are you suggesting that given the option to reduce staffing to match the passenger loads, WSF should run with full staff so a handful of people can stand outside on the upper promenade deck in cold, wet and windy weather? Really? I don't like the upper deck being closed on these vessels any time just as I don't like the upper deck being closed on the Tokitae. But I recognize it as a necessary evil when a vessel is placed on a route that does not need the full passenger cabin. Years ago I saw a Mariners game at the Kingdome. There were probably 10,000 people in attendance. I wanted to sit way up at the top row of the upper deck to see what is was like. Obviously, the seats weren't sold. An usher came along and chased us out. It wasn't a problem that we were sitting in seats we didn't buy. It was a problem because the computer showed no seats sold in that section, thus they didn't staff an usher, and they don't have a cleaning crew scheduled that night to clean that section. Therefore, because the staffing was not in place to support people sitting there, we had to move. The Kingdome was a public structure; I certainly didn't argue that it was my right to sit there as a tax payer. I'd save the outrage for a 5PM sailing from Colman Dock to Bremerton, where due to a no-show deckhand position the vessel would have to sail with closed upper deck and a restricted license. That truly is a problem. What about the people who would like to use that space but can't? As taxpaying citizens who furthermore pay their way via the farebox, they have a right to that space. And who are you to say I'm 'over the top' about it? Not only did they unnecessarily eliminate the upper deck of the Kaleetan in the winter months (should it end up there in the San Juans during wintertime - and I hope not as I would like to see it back in its rightful place down in Bremerton and for once get the Kitsap off that route for good) they also in the process removed an entire bench that in peak sailings on the Bremerton run would be packed with people taking in the air while sitting in that shelter deck in the summer months. And even in the wintertime, when the Kaleetan operated on the Bremerton run there is actually quite a few people up on the sun deck of that vessel - and I have proof of that via video shot on a clear day in February 2011 when we were under a deep-freeze AND a windstorm that drove windchills down into the single digits! The sun deck was PACKED on that crossing! So don't tell me that people won't sit there or would opt to stay in their cars. I also know people who travel frequently in the San Juans even during the winter months, and their first destination is the sun deck - even if it's rainy! This is the most silly, ill-thought out, and totally unnecessary modification I've seen of any vessel in WSF, and I wouldn't be saying it just about the Kaleetan - I would be saying it about the Hyak, Yakima, etc. |
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 10, 2014 20:09:27 GMT -8
Addendum:
Your comparison of the Kaleetan to the Kingdome has no merit as it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Why?
A.) The Kingdome - while yes indeed a public structure - was operationally financed by seat sales, not tax revenue. It furthermore should never have been demolished as the construction bonds STILL have yet to be paid on it!
B.) The Kaleetan (as well as the other ferries) are funded by tax revenue or the farebox; they are not funded or financed by seat sales - and as such all available passenger space should be open to the public
If they can't operate with adequate staffing to keep the upper decks open, they can do one of two things:
1.) Reinstate the Motor Vehicle Excise Tax and forever rid Washington state of the abomination that was Initiative 695 once and for all, or;
2.) Raise taxes through other avenues as prescribed by the state Constitution, which would create jobs by way of allowing the state to provide the necessary deckhands to keep the spaces open.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 20:24:37 GMT -8
LOL. Just LOL. Mr Rosenow, your posts here over the past couple of days are so outlandish that they have made the forum an entertaining place on a typically bleak summer Thursday evening. Excuse me while I go make some popcorn...
How can you claim that the upper outside deck is well used when you saw ONE sailing where it was 'kinda' used and you know a few friends that like to go up there.
-That's like saying the Queen of Burnaby is too small for route 17 because you saw one full sailing on an August Long Weekend.
And your claim that the mentioned comparison is "apples to oranges" is blatantly wrong. The stadium was staffed based on the number of spectators attending, just like a ferry is staffed based on expected traffic levels. I see nothing that's apples-to-oranges there.
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Post by Ferryman on Jul 10, 2014 20:52:30 GMT -8
Yes, but as taxpaying citizens, you're also supporting international safety standards that are not only affecting just your neck of the woods, but everywhere else. The rules and regulations are revised/updated every so many years as set out from IMO, International Maritime Organization. There was once a time where all ships seemed to have an abundance of crew members, and money didn't appear to be as much of an issue as far as staffing a vessel was concerned. It was simply the cost of doing business. Over time, the evacuation systems become more advanced, and easier to deploy, which assists companies in being able to cut back on minimal crew requirements. Everything these days is about the all mighty dollar figure, and if money can be saved, companies will look for ways of doing so.
I think the reason for cutting back on passenger space has been covered more than enough, so I don't have anything to add to that part. As a taxpayer/ferry traveller myself, I don't like to see various areas closed off that are normally closed off. As a ferry worker, I don't like to see crew members being cut back. In an ideal world, the ferries would sail full all the time, justifying the need for the extra crew and full passenger space. But like I said, everything comes down to money, and if money can be saved on labour to help reduce costs, which also helps reduce costs at the fare box, then so be it. I also feel as though taxpayers would be glad to see reduced operating costs. Nobody likes to see tax increases, or fare increases for that matter of course.
Oh, and it's not only just happening with ferries. I'm currently working on a (Canadian) cargo ship that was built in 1979. Originally it was built to have about 26 crew, but now they're allowed to sail with as little as 23, and potentially less in the future. The brand new cargo ships that are being built for the company I'm with, will run with as little as 15 crew members and are the same size as the one I'm on. That doesn't leave a lot of manpower for 24 hour operations. Keep in mind from another perspective, that cargo ships carry pretty well just about whatever you can think of, that people use as part of their everyday lives, and a lot of that is also supported by taxpayer money too. Again, it all comes down to money, money, money. I can't say that enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 21:35:06 GMT -8
Oh, and it's not only just happening with ferries. I'm currently working on a (Canadian) cargo ship that was built in 1979. Originally it was built to have about 26 crew, but now they're allowed to sail with as little as 23, and potentially less in the future. The brand new cargo ships that are being built for the company I'm with, will run with as little as 15 crew members and are the same size as the one I'm on. That doesn't leave a lot of manpower for 24 hour operations. Keep in mind from another perspective, that cargo ships carry pretty well just about whatever you can think of, that people use as part of their everyday lives, and a lot of that is also supported by taxpayer money too. Again, it all comes down to money, money, money. I can't say that enough. I remember reading in The Queens of British Columbia that the seven sisters sailed with a crew of 55. Times have changed. It is quite the extreme difference when you consider that some cruise ships size up with these cargo vessels. Crew of 22 on the Maersk Kendal versus a crew of 953 on the Norwegian Sun. Granted, not all crew members on cruise ships are trained to deal with Emergency Situations, but that's still a sizeable difference for two similarly-sized ships (the Sun is a bit smaller). |
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 10, 2014 22:54:13 GMT -8
Everything these days is about the all mighty dollar figure, and if money can be saved, companies will look for ways of doing so. I think the reason for cutting back on passenger space has been covered more than enough, so I don't have anything to add to that part. As a taxpayer/ferry traveller myself, I don't like to see various areas closed off that are normally closed off. As a ferry worker, I don't like to see crew members being cut back. In an ideal world, the ferries would sail full all the time, justifying the need for the extra crew and full passenger space. But like I said, everything comes down to money, and if money can be saved on labour to help reduce costs, which also helps reduce costs at the fare box, then so be it. I also feel as though taxpayers would be glad to see reduced operating costs. Nobody likes to see tax increases, or fare increases for that matter of course. ... Again, it all comes down to money, money, money. I can't say that enough. That is the corporate mindset - treat people like they're expendable at all costs to save a dollar - and that is why the United States' own economy has recovered at a sluggish pace. It's time that foolish mindset is abolished. To put it into perspective - in the 1950s the marginal tax rate for corporations and the wealthy in the United States, was at 91 percent and unemployment was a scant 2 percent. Today, the corporate tax rate is 17 percent, and unemployment in the U.S. is just above 6 percent, and at its peak during the 2007-2008 economic crisis, the corporate tax rate was 11 percent and unemployment was skyrocketing towards 10 percent by late 2008 / early 2009. Why was unemployment so low in the 1950s? Two factors. 1.) The tax revenue generated helped create jobs by way of investing in public infrastructure. The Super Class ferries were built using federal tax dollars, and created an estimated 200 jobs in the process. The Interstate Highway System in the U.S. was also built during that time, and an estimated 1.5 million jobs were created during the entire 20 years it took to build it. The U.S. Government also spent in upwards of $400 billion dollars. When the project was announced when President Eisenhower signed the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956, the initial cost was slated to be $25 billion just to get the project off the ground. For every dollar the government spent, it created $6 in economic benefit. Adjust those numbers today? You'd be spending close to two trillion dollars. For every 8 dollars spent, it would produce $68 in economic benefit to the community! It is a no brainer! 2.) Those jobs created were living wage jobs, and back then workers weren't treated as expendable costs to be eliminated in the name of profit (or in the name of saving money!) It's time to get rid of that mindset. Especially when in the U.S. large corporations are offshoring trillions in tax havens and not investing it back into the country! It's time to raise taxes again! How does this play into the Kaleetan and the staffing woes at WSF? In 1999 voters in Washington approved a lame initiative known as I-695, which wholly repealed the Motor Vehicle Excise Tax - a tax that fully funded the operation of WSDOT - including WSF. That initiative cut nearly $1.8 billion in annual revenue to WSDOT. WSF alone received 40 percent of the revenue generated by the MVET, and a third of which was spent on adequate staffing. Those barriers and the restriction of access is asinine, when we as ferry patrons have every right to that space. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 10, 2014 23:09:02 GMT -8
A 91% marginal tax rate is asinine, in every way, shape and form.
That's one of the strangest things I've ever read on this forum.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 10, 2014 23:14:15 GMT -8
A 91% marginal tax rate is asinine, in every way, shape and form. That's one of the strangest things I've ever read on this forum. It might be asinine to you, but it's established factual record in the United States. That high tax rate also helped build and establish what was once considered the strongest middle class in the world. It also kept the rich in this country from hoarding obscene amounts of money like they are now. From 1942 to 1949 the tax rate was 100% if you exceeded $25K annual income (adjusted for inflation, that's just under $325K now). Back then, the middle class flourished, the rich were still wealthy, and we didn't have the income inequality in the U.S. that we do now. *EDIT* Oh, and we had ferries being built on federal subsidy and back then we had the world's best highway system, second to the Autobahn for which it was inspired from. |
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Post by chokai on Jul 10, 2014 23:49:54 GMT -8
It is quite the extreme difference when you consider that some cruise ships size up with these cargo vessels. Crew of 22 on the Maersk Kendal versus a crew of 953 on the Norwegian Sun. Granted, not all crew members on cruise ships are trained to deal with Emergency Situations, but that's still a sizeable difference for two similarly-sized ships (the Sun is a bit smaller).
And that's just the boats. On the shore side look at the new container yard at Amsterdam that's fully automated and run by 12 people now. As well as the new completely automated warehouses coming online, companies are getting huge tax breaks for hiring hundreds of people at new distribution centers, all of whom will be out of a job in a few years when the automation work so many big companies are investing in is complete. It's an interesting economy we are headed into, brain power is becoming ever more valuable.
Those new big Maersk and MSC boats are really turning everything upside down, or rather sending everything smaller off to run north/south along the coasts. Pretty much the only guys making any money are the guys building boats 10,000 TEU or larger.
We've already seen some of that technology sneak its way into our ferries. As a tech guy it was cool to see all the electronics infrastructure and stuff that is in place on Tokitae and that they've been retrofitting into the other boats like Kaleetan. |
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 11, 2014 5:52:02 GMT -8
Not only did they unnecessarily eliminate the upper deck of the Kaleetan in the winter months (should it end up there in the San Juans during wintertime - and I hope not as I would like to see it back in its rightful place down in Bremerton and for once get the Kitsap off that route for good) they also in the process removed an entire bench that in peak sailings on the Bremerton run would be packed with people taking in the air while sitting in that shelter deck in the summer months. And even in the wintertime, when the Kaleetan operated on the Bremerton run there is actually quite a few people up on the sun deck of that vessel - and I have proof of that via video shot on a clear day in February 2011 when we were under a deep-freeze AND a windstorm that drove windchills down into the single digits! The sun deck was PACKED on that crossing! So don't tell me that people won't sit there or would opt to stay in their cars. I also know people who travel frequently in the San Juans even during the winter months, and their first destination is the sun deck - even if it's rainy! This is the most silly, ill-thought out, and totally unnecessary modification I've seen of any vessel in WSF, and I wouldn't be saying it just about the Kaleetan - I would be saying it about the Hyak, Yakima, etc. The lockdown of the upper deck at Bremerton is a really, REALLY unlikely thing to happen. It would necessitate closing the galley for that crossing, which is open year-round on your preferred route. If there were an occasion where it were to happen, it would most likely be a case of a crewing shortage. Would you rather have a restricted sailing where 450 people were allowed to make the crossing, or cancel the sailing? You mention the shelter deck being "packed" during a sub-freezing crossing and a windstorm bringing temperatures into the single digits. I'd be surprised if any given individual was out there for long... something about heavy weather brings out the thrill seeker in a lot of people. But I digress, because WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BREMERTON here. The only place I can see where the gates would be used on a scheduled basis is the San Juans, where in January all of the passengers' indignance is used on the lack of galley rather than the lack of promenade. Even when it was open, most of the time there was room to toss a caber up there in the winter months. Oh, and the Kaleetan, before it came to its "rightful place" in Bremerton, was San Juan property for twenty-six years.  |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 14, 2014 16:06:39 GMT -8
Here is the Super Abomination, arriving at Anacortes. - early evening on July 14, 2014  ---------- And with this photo, my Super-class photo-slam is complete. (that just means that I've photographed all 4 ships at one time or another. But I've only ridden Elwha - and tomorrow I add Kaleetan to that ridden list) |
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Post by Kahloke on Jul 14, 2014 16:41:45 GMT -8
But I've only ridden Elwha - and tomorrow I add Kaleetan to that ridden list Make sure you thoroughly document the "ugliest abomination" that Steve Rosenow has ever laid his eyes on, that is the new security gates on Kaleetan  |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 15, 2014 22:33:11 GMT -8
Some shots of Kaleetan from the evening of July 15, 2014 Arriving at Orcas Island, in the lovely evening light  ------------- We're heading East nearing Thatcher Pass, with the sunset colors and Lopez Island behind us. I'm at the aft pickle-fork and I look up to the empty pilothouse:  ...admiring the view behind me  ------------ For the WCFF Wrestlemania Cage-Match. - in this corner, the Green Abomination, from Parts Unknown....  |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 20, 2014 19:30:54 GMT -8
Some shots of Kaleetan from the evening of July 15, 2014 and Elwha on same day, for comparison  |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 23, 2014 8:35:45 GMT -8
Kaleetan has a good time in this video of an evening of ferry watching from Anacortes.
- this is 3.5 hours of my fun, sped-up for this video.
Evening of July 14, 2014. A good time.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 24, 2014 16:29:00 GMT -8
Kaleetan's 9:35pm arrival in Anacortes, her historical home-port. - July 14, 2014   With Chelan.   |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 27, 2014 11:54:35 GMT -8
Kaleetan, with the evening sun behind her. I've exaggerated the silhouette impact.  |
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