Kam
Voyager
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Post by Kam on Jul 5, 2008 22:27:30 GMT -8
Hot off the press: Green said CLF plans to make a promotional visit to Gibsons soon to allow people to inspect the vessel and perhaps take a short spin to see how it functions. Lets keep an eye out for that, sounds like a great group trip idea!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2008 15:32:15 GMT -8
Hey folks, after those two posts I left last night, it was pointed out I may have come across as defensive. All that talk about Super Bowl and I change my strategy to defensive? Not at all. I have enjoyed, totally, the speculation and conjecture and suggestion and even the taunting and challenges. Hey, some of you know way more about ships than I do. Some of you know less. But I definitely don't feel defensive. I appreciate everything here. It's fun.....and I appreciate all of your comments. After all, if it works, we all win.
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 6, 2008 21:13:01 GMT -8
Peter We have all had some fun, joking etc. now lets get serious. We have all seen your boat, so it does create some concern. Can you answer some serious questions without being evasive? 1. What will happen if the one engine fails. Sure you might think it is new and won't fail, but even a new engine can get bad fuel, specially in Gibsons. So the fuel filter is clogged, it is a windy, rainy February day, we are half way from Lions Gate to Point Atkinson, and the engine dies. What next??? 2. What about ventilation? I see no open windows. So lets get back to that windy, rainy, February day, the engine fails, we are rolling about in English Bay and people start to get sick. What next??? 3. What about heat? There is only one engine and lots of windows. A 600 HP engine only can produce so much heat. Lets go back to that February day, no engine, no ventilation, people are sick and it is 12 below and dark. What next??? 4. Back to the one engine concern. Lets change it to the morning trip in, I along with 70 other people have work to get to, clients to meet, money to make. If we are all on board and the only engine dies, what is the back up? 5. If at 5:00 AM you discover the boat cannot run that day, weather, engine, crew what ever, and we all show up at 6:45 to catch the 7:00 AM sailing, but it will not be going, how will you get us to town on time??? The QOS will not work! Beyond the finance, these real service issues are the important questions I and every potential commuter has. There have been instances in the past where people are left high and dry, exactly how will you do a better job?? I think it is fair we know that, who cares if your business plan leave you all broke, but mess up my commute and my job and I do care. Keep me stranded with a broken engine for 30 min and that is no good. Freeze me and that is no good, cost me money or my job and that is no good. I heard of one fellow who was fired from his job last BCFS strike. There is a huge responsibility and I think it is fair you let your potential customers know exactly how you will look after them. Is that fair game?
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Post by tempest on Jul 6, 2008 22:27:39 GMT -8
Answers:
1) Well, the only good thing you have going is the SE won't get you too bad.
2) You weren't looking. Didn't you see the Coleman air conditioner up top?
3) Well, as long as the engine is running, you'll have your little forced air radiators.
4) Why do you keep bringing up the one engine thing? Ihab knew full well, while the rest of the world is going to 2 and many 4 for redundancy, they're not as economical as one. Get over it!
5) I guess you'll be on the 8:20 and arriving to work at about, let's say a little after 10.
While this post is more than a little tongue in cheek, you have very valid points. How about it Peter? Instead of talking about the super bowl, how about some real, down to earth answers. Your potential customers have a right to know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2008 0:18:16 GMT -8
Good questions.....let's see what we learn this week.
I talked about Super Bowl because it seems everyone has questions and concerns, and many are speculating as to outcomes, performance, etc. I'd rather get the game underway, trust me, I'm as anxious as anyone to get it here.
So when the vessel makes a visit to the Sunshine Coast, our potential commuters and customers (including our mailing list) will be invited to come and visit, inspect, speak with Ihab and the crew, and learn first-hand. Come on down and ask! We will get a chance, I'm told, later this week or during the coming weekend.
I'm now going off for a few days, so hang in there and we'll see you soon!
Take care!
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Post by tempest on Jul 7, 2008 7:42:32 GMT -8
Well, Guest 121, it appears that you have got your answer. No answer. Just some dribble about the Super Bowl and an open house.
What kind of nonsense is this, particularly when you are a potential regular customer! Is this the way you treat your customers, nothing but sarcasm? Why won't they just answer the questions? Too many questions and not enough answers from what I can see.
Sounds like it's off to a great start...
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 7, 2008 7:45:15 GMT -8
Good questions.....let's see what we learn this week. I talked about Super Bowl because it seems everyone has questions and concerns, and many are speculating as to outcomes, performance, etc. I'd rather get the game underway, trust me, I'm as anxious as anyone to get it here. So when the vessel makes a visit to the Sunshine Coast, our potential commuters and customers (including our mailing list) will be invited to come and visit, inspect, speak with Ihab and the crew, and learn first-hand. Come on down and ask! We will get a chance, I'm told, later this week or during the coming weekend. I'm now going off for a few days, so hang in there and we'll see you soon! Take care! As is the norm now, no real answers. This is exactly why I have been asking who CLF has sought council from. Each of these situations has happened to others in the past, some have had solutions, some not. Even though all who have tried have failed, those with contingency plans for these issues last longer than those who just want to wing it and deal with what might come. As the old saying goes, those who fail to plan, plan to fail. Peter has been a very good sport and has taken a lot of ribbing, but it is quite clear he is a marketer not a marine operator. His boss may be the operator, but he is either completely clueless or not communicating to Peter. Peter you are right a lot of questions will be answered once the boat arrives in Gibsons. Will it do the projected speed with a full load? Will it take the seas as projected? Will it be comfortable with a full load? These are easy to see and prove right or wrong. What cannot be demonstrated with the boat, but must be demonstrated with answers is how will CLF deal with customer service issues in a failure situation. While everything is good everyone is happy, but the true measure of a company or a person is how they deal with accidents. Ihab as the CEO will set the tone for customer service. His command will be the crews marching orders. Will the command be budget? As the boat is. So when there is a failure are the passengers SOL like on the Bruno. Or will the command be try as hard as possible, budget not a consideration, like the Georgia Master where other vessels were hired on the spot. (Although both the Bruno and Georgia Master had two engines, meaning fewer catastrophic breakdowns.) The Georgia Master had policies and contacts in place to deal with each of the five issues I listed. If asked they had answers. I can understand that with private financial matters CLF is a private company and it is non of our business about those issues. CLF may or may not last a year, they have a 15% chance to last a year. If they last the first year they have a 33% chance of continuing through year 2. That is just the fact of new business. Again none of our business how Ihab will try to keep his investment viable. Tourism may or may not work, but as a prospective commuter I could care less as long as Ihab provides me good service I could care less if he is making it long term or not. (Although a monthly pass is a little concern, will he make it through the month??) What will turn me off faster than anything is poor customer service, poor planning how to protect the customers interest. So Peter I would appreciate real answers to the questions not just a "Watch the water" type comment. I have been watching the water, and there is no boat, I have been watching this board and there have been few if any answers. I am looking, just not getting the confidence I need. (Keep in mind, I may not be in the first load, but you are hoping to get the lot I sit with on the Queen of Surrey, everyday, and I tell tow friends and they tell two friends and so on and so on. Word of mouth on a ship spreads quick in one hour. Cheers
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2008 8:03:06 GMT -8
Hey, like i could leave this morning without addressing that...it's drivel, Tempest, not dribble. But either way I guess Super Bowl is that. I didn't mean to trivialize your questions. What do you expect here? Do you think I view this as our "customer base" ? There are most certainly potential customers, but this isn't where we market the Ferry. Like you, I am awaiting the arrival of our vessel. I have fun here, I've said that all along, and I share what information I can. I have forwarded many of your posts to Captain Shaker. Do you think everyone here is just happily waiting for us to operate and succeed? We don't need a forum of supporters, or a forum of naysayers....we need to show that the CLF Vessel can do the job. As I said, let's see what this week holds....the Marketing department is anxiously awaiting the results of the Operations Department. And do you consider this a completely friendly forum to our operation? Would you post your information here? Got a question? Write to me directly. Ask me via email, phone or in person. Ask the 200-plus who have done just that. Ask Landlocked if I do not keep in touch and pass on comments I receive about the good that he did and I hear of. Ask if I don't reply personally to each writer. I have the group that I communicate with regularly - who I have met at public meetings, who have responded to our website, who I met on the Ferry....to these people, I "owe" answers. they have asked me directly. Now, as I'm heading out the door, you also know I will answer questions when I can. I am going to get those answers, because they mean as much to me as they do to you. I don't want to give the party line, I moved my family here for this so I have a lot at stake as well. I take your jobs, your reliability, as seriously as I take my own. I want this to work, I want to confirm it will work. All sources tell me that it is calculated to work, and it will work, and - like you - I'll believe it when I see it. I don't want any of you to risk your jobs, your careers, or your trust on something that doesn't work. I don't mean to dismiss this forum, and I have sincerely learned a lot from it. I enjoy beng part of it, but somehow some of you assume that I now have an obligation to answer a Board of Enquiry here. And I don't mean to dismiss your questions. I believe the answers are coming, and I'm still looking to the water. Have a fun few days! Now I can't look in on this to see......so let me work up some Stanley Cup analogies for my next response! Thanks everyone.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jul 7, 2008 8:35:41 GMT -8
Some people just don't get it, nor will they. They will interpret everything you say or don't say Peter with whatever coloured glasses they are wearing. They will continue to make comments, some good factual questions, but then pepper them with comments that are antagonistic and strictly conjecture. Time will tell if your business plan is solid and how your marketing will pan out. Certainly I agree that there are those on this forum who don`t wish your venture well. There is no other way to explain the attitude that is evident. However the bulk of us look forward to seeing it a success and/or how the business developes.
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Post by 1 on Jul 7, 2008 9:59:00 GMT -8
[post deleted by moderator. This forum isn't a play-room. If you want to purposely try to embarass or sabotage a business, print some pages and nail them to telephone poles instead.]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2008 11:50:46 GMT -8
You beat me to it with that last one, so that's the latest update. And I came to this Starbucks to use the internet....
Ok...I will....
The next round of inspections on the vessel are tomorrow. We're all hopeful. I forwarded many of the questions to Ihab Shaker and hope to have answers here as soon as I can.
Back soon!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2008 13:57:47 GMT -8
Hi Folks,
I'll never get away. I keep checking back. However I owe an apology to Terry Rhodes from the GLHA - he was mentioned in that posted memorandum and never would I suspect him to be implicated in anything untoward. That wasn't my intent. He and I discussed this matter, especially information getting onto this group, and we share a concern.
However, I do apologize to Terry, and if I have included her, Carol Doyle, as both have been wonderful to us. They are very direct and I never need to assume there's anything under the table. But with information arising from their Board's dealings with us, I have concerns about the source being part of, or affiliated with, the Board.
So please do not read into the memorandum that either of these two individuals are a source of information. Terry and Captain Shaker are both concerned that information about their negotiations made it onto this forum.
We'll keep you posted about developments.
Thanks so much, and again, my apologies to Terry and Carol if I slighted them in any way.
Peter Green
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Post by Guest 55 on Jul 7, 2008 15:03:35 GMT -8
I got word that they will be visiting with the ship on Saturday of this weekend. We are watching the water for sure.
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 7, 2008 15:26:12 GMT -8
How did the amount of $1500, which was discussed only between Mr. Rhodes and Ihab Shaker, become public knowledge? Who posted this to a public forum? The same body that fears Media awareness is leaking information. Peter I made that post, the reference to $1,500 was just a number picked out of the air to use as an example. It was not part of the Scuttle Butt. The Scuttle Butt was that Ihab has left in a huff, and the report in the Coast Reported implied the same tone. I can assure you I don't know personally anyone on the GLHA, nor do the people I was talking to, it was just Scuttle Butt. You know rumor, conjecture and dabbling of uninformed people. As for the $1,500 I just picked a number out of the air. $1,000 seemed too low and $2,000 seemed too high so $1,500 felt good. The fact that it seems to have hit very close to home is rather funny. Also the fact that you feel there is a mole in the GLHA because I took a guess at a number is just beyond me. Pure coincidence. Gibsons is a small town and everyone does seem to know everyone else's business more than half the time. I kid about your children and bathroom reports, but there is some reality to the small town nature of Gibsons. In some ways it is good, there are lots of parents out there watching your children. They know you and your children. That is a good part about living in Gibsons. The annoying part is some things you don't want people to know half the town knows, like who is sleeping with whom. But in this case there was no leak of the amount, just a wild stab for an example. But now the truth is out, So GLHA want to charge $1,500 per month. Big deal with 4 crew, a fuel bill well over $20,000 per month, what the heck is $1,500? As I said with the carbon tax the fuel bill must have just gone up more than $1,500 per month. If that is all that is holding things up, what is the hold up. The interest alone on the capital must be 3 - 4 times that much. Also summer is slipping away, the best bet for a nice start up is in the summer. In any case if there is any "Fault" for this not being a good deal, and I have no idea if it is a good deal or not, it lies with CLF for building a boat, then trying to negotiate with the only viable landlord when CLF has no options. The process has by its nature just made the GLHA in a far better negotiating position. Who was the architect of this plan for negotiations? Glen Clark? Anyway, just to make sure you get your panties out of the knot they are in, the $1,500 was not even a guess, just a number for an example.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2008 16:05:30 GMT -8
Hey, that's a thong I wear.....and when they get into a knot, I can hit those really high notes.
Sure was a good guess. Coupled with other issues I suppose it seemed a bit "dead on" to me.
Onwards we go! Thanks for the update, Guest 121, I appreciate it.
Take care
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 7, 2008 18:26:20 GMT -8
Peter
So, on the Ferry home tonight a few of us were reviewing your long post today with some more details of the negotiations with the GLHA.
Some of the commuters who did ride the Georgia Master commented on a few things.
1. They recall the Georgia Master did not pay anything to drop off and pickup in Gibsons.
2. They recall the town of Gibsons tried to get the Georgia Master to provide parking but George Slade found some legislation which exempts transportation companies from local government control. In effect the Town of Gibsons has no say over transportation providers who travel between jurisdictions.
3. They recall the Georgia Master paid something on the order of $400 per month in Vancouver.
(These first three items should be verified with George Slade, there was some confusion over some of the details.)
4. They recall the Georgia Master did not overnight in Gibsons, George Slade had his own private moorage or something at Keats Island.
5. They recall there was no office on the dock or waiting room at all, it was before it was built. It was not a concern of theirs anyway. They did not feel it was a required feature.
6. They don’t feel that it helps your cause to post publicly that you want to basically evict another tenant on the wharf. Why is your business more important than hers. 7. They also feel it really does not help your cause to state on a public forum “we may be dealing with a less-than-ethical body, or at least members who behave as such” Boy post that, then go to negotiate, I am sure you will get a welcome mat with spikes in it. One has to wonder what school of business Ihab went to. Question how to negotiate, Answer make lots of disparaging comments about your opponent, it will soften them up to your point of view...... Hmmm, I think not.
On the subject of what is a fair price to pay for moorage in Gibsons. I Googled Sewells, in Horseshoe Bay. For their annual moorage for a 75 foot slip, it would be about $750 per month. So It would seem $750 per month for overnight would be fair.
I would probably be in disagreement with the GLHA because I would think the pickup and drop off should be free like it was for the Georgia Master, fair is fair, if he did not pay for that access why should CLF. So if CLF were to not use overnight moorage then the pickup and drop off should be free like in the past. I am of the opinion the boat has sailed on the use of the office, for now. A lease has been signed and it takes time to change that. The retail store will likely fail in any case, not the right location for that type of store in my mind. I doubt the store will survive the fall. In time if Ihab has the money, they will get him the space.
Based on Sewells rate and what has been charged in the past, it does seem that $3,400 was way out of line and even $1,500 is twice what it should be (if there is no office included) But, from what has been said to the press and posted on this forum, I can see why the GLHA may be sticking it to Ihab. Basically Ihab has made his own bed with the GLHA and now he needs to lay in it. If it were me making a statement to the press I would have said the GLHA is asking $3400 and Sewells charges $750, make what you will of the facts. But Ihab makes comments like “The GLHA is unreasonable” with no facts it just sounds like Ihab is a child. It takes the facts to put context to the story, and the childish terms used like “dealing with a less-than-ethical body” referring to the GLHA just do not help Ihab’s case. The comments have been published, the boat is built. There is nowhere else for Ihab to go and they know it. I feel sorry Ihab has made this situation for himself, but looking at all the reports, I can see the GLHA point of view as well. Keep in mind way back on page 1 or 2 someone from the GLHA or Town of Gibsons said there was another proponent in the wings. They are not making these comments about the GLHA, they have not shown their hand. Maybe they have a nicer vessel with a better proposal and more money on the table for the GLHA, we just don’t know. Ihab is not the only game in town, just the only game we see. Maybe the GLHA know a lot more than we do and they are holding out for the better vessel, better deal. Who knows. But faced with a prospective tenant that has said what Ihab has said to the press, I would jack the price and hold out just like the GLHA seems to be doing. I would hold at $3,400. Just more of my $0.02 worth. I must say, following this has been an education.
A news flash, BC Ferries were actually early again tonight. This new schedule is great, no overloads, and ferries that leave a few minutes early, rather than regularly 10 minutes late. I have come to expect that in BC Ferries vocabulary, on time is at least 10 minutes late. But tonight I was home in the house by 6:45. Now if I could just find a way to catch the 4:30?? To expensive I would give up one billable hour a day.
We are looking forward to this weekend and see the Coastal Runner in person.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2008 18:35:15 GMT -8
Great stuff there, guest. Our sentiments about leaks, etc., reflect other things as well and you're right, we should not be making statements about any organization. The discussion concerning the Georgia Master and other things was invaluable, again, thank you! I guess, in reality, we are not replacing BC Ferries, nor do we think that's what we're here for. I think the speculation and conjecture, no matter why it's placed here, are fine but we should focus on the vessel and our service. If you come down to visit the Coastal Runner, let me know you're there. We'll announce when it's coming in. Take care and, again, thanks!!
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 7, 2008 18:55:40 GMT -8
I don't know, 'guest 121'. If you had said "I was just guessing" once, I would have accepted it at face value. For some reason, saying it five times, kind of makes me wonder. In any event, I'd like you to help me pick some lottery numbers. The reason I repeated it four times (not five) was it seemed very serious to CLF and the GLHA. It appeared that my example was causing them to not trust each other, and that would harm the process. I wanted to make if crystal clear, where the figure came from and why. I felt that my post may have caused some harm to the process and I was concerned. I do ask a lot of questions and I am up and down on this proposal. I get excited and think maybe this is good, then I see something else and I go Oh crap this is bad. I talk to one person and they are all for it and then another and they think Ihab is the devil. Heck some Gibsons people think a passenger service would ruin Gibsons. I am looking for answers, I am getting some on this forum, lots from Google. (I love Google) It is just my nature as a Lawyer, I love to investigate and dig stuff up, If I did not love doing due diligence I would not be a Lawyer. My area of practice is corporate due diligence, mergers and acquisitions. I am fascinated to watch Ihab. His negotiation process is odd to say the least. His lack of due diligence is fascinating. His arrogance is amusing. If I was a business professor I would record this whole process and use it as an education tool. What not to do. As long as Ihab will open his mouth in public we can all learn from him. It is easier to learn from others mistakes than make them ourselves. The negotiations with the GLHA is just a perfect example of what not to do, and the effects of what not to do. Compare Gene Simmons to Donald Trump. Gene thinks he is a player, Donald is. They both have more money than I do, but clearly Gene is a want to be, and Donald is. Same could be said about Ihab, he talks and walks like Gene. based on what I read Ihab is arrogant and unwilling to take advice from others. He knows it all, he has what no one else has. He is God. Sound like Gene Simmons talking. Other don't brag and shout they just do. I really find Ihab fascinating.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jul 7, 2008 19:18:40 GMT -8
If I was a business professor I would record this whole process and use it as an education tool. What not to do. Skeptical as I am, I think it might be a good idea to wait until they've at least done a few revenue sailings before we consign them to Davy Jones' locker. Perhaps you don't know Capt. Shaker as well as you think you do. In any event, what a dilemma for the good captain- is it more flattering to be compared to Gene Simmons, or to Donald Trump? Ewww.
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 7, 2008 19:36:00 GMT -8
If I was a business professor I would record this whole process and use it as an education tool. What not to do. Skeptical as I am, I think it might be a good idea to wait until they've at least done a few revenue sailings before we consign them to Davy Jones' locker. Perhaps you don't know Capt. Shaker as well as you think you do. In any event, what a dilemma for the good captain- is it more flattering to be compared to Gene Simmons, or to Donald Trump? Ewww. Neil I was referring to the negotiations with GLHA. It would seem that Ihab has pretty much failed in that effort. Look at what they are looking at charging him. Ranging from $1500 - $3400. What did they charge the Georgia Master? Nothing... What would Sewells charge him, $750. Ihab has been making rash statements in the press which cannot help his case. As for his negotiations with the GLHA so far, Ihab has not demonstrated skill, or success. Others have. I agree we will wait and see on the service side etc. But if the past is any indication of the future, I fear for Ihab's investment. And you are right I have no clue who Ihab is, I could walk past him and not know it. I am basing everything I say about him on this forum and press reports. Those are my only source. But they do paint a pretty complete and consistent picture.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 7, 2008 20:07:33 GMT -8
6. They don’t feel that it helps your cause to post publicly that you want to basically evict another tenant on the wharf. If I recall correctly from today, it was in Reply #209 that guest-poster "Guest 1 (great creativity on that name....)" posted the confidential stuff that included the wharf tenant item. It wasn't Peter that posted it here.....but Peter did email to someone who then posted it here on this forum (maybe with a few middle men between them). I wonder what Guest 1's motivation was in posting that? Trying to make Peter look bad, on purpose? Maybe #1 can get together with #101, and #55 and #121, and figure it out. And while they're at it, try and find out what happened to Guest #111.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 7, 2008 20:17:38 GMT -8
But tonight I was home in the house by 6:45. Now if I could just find a way to catch the 4:30?? To expensive I would give up one billable hour a day. What price do you put on being able to be home before 6:45pm on a regular basis? At what point do you have "enough" work and enough billings? Just curious, as I thought that the Sunshine Coast was a place to slow down and enjoy life.... You've got me wondering on your commuting lifestyle: how long can you sustain it? Is it a case of short-term pain for retirement gain? I'm not trying to be critical, just curious. What is the typical sunshine-coast to Vancouver commuter like, as far as work/life balance? And is this a growing demographic? or is the new generation of Millennials going to put an end to these types of commutes? (for comparison, I have a 20-minute drive commute on Vancouver Island, so I'm not well versed in downtown Vancouver working culture). Eat, drink and find joy in your toilsome labour, for this is your lot...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2008 20:32:56 GMT -8
Flugel Horn, thanks for the update and what you sent. Do you play Flugel Horn?
Actually, the "confidential" memo was only sent to a few people who asked me about whether Ihab had actually lost his temper. It wasn't really confidential, nothing is. And it may have been an attempt to discredit or affect us...but it is what it is and we're still moving forward.
I can't force the issue, or bring the ship any sooner, and when it comes and performs we can all make our decisions. You'll always have BC Ferries, that's a given, and you can choose what service works best for you. I don't mind anyone's opinion, comment or even frustration. I can't do anything about it anyway, nor would I want to.
And as I said previously, there's a lot to this that we haven't discussed, because we don't have to. I will avoid any comparisons to Super Bowl. Let's just play the game!
Have a great night!!!
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Post by landlocked on Jul 7, 2008 20:39:50 GMT -8
My goodness guys! I can't believe my eyes!
If all of what I read is true, all I can say is, "I can't believe it".
Having dealt with a number of governmental agencies before, some act like real business people and conduct themselves in a very professional manner. I have seen a number of them in my limited little world and must say, I find the way they conduct themselves to be disgusting. No names mentioned.
In this case, I think there may well be a little bit of the old 'make the price so high maybe they won't want it' syndrome. I don't know about the 'the tenant did or didn't have a lease' part, or the 'he said, she said' stuff. What I do know is that any operator only wants to pay what's fair.
I wait, with bated breath to the next installment.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 7, 2008 20:39:50 GMT -8
Flugel Horn, thanks for the update and what you sent. Do you play Flugel Horn? Yes, I play that horn that Chuck Mangione made famous. I like the contrast to the bright sound of my trumpet compared to the darker, mellower tone of my flugel horn.
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