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Post by Hardy on Mar 22, 2008 19:32:17 GMT -8
By 'issues' with these outside stairs I mean the following: 1 - The coarse steel grid is a problem. I watched a nicotine starved woman with stiletto type high heels trying to negotiate these stairs so that she could get her 'fix'. Her heels poked right through the grid. I had a potential problem also in that the cane I am currently using (due to my recent broken leg) was also able to penetrate right through the grid. I see a potential for serious accidents on these steps because of this grid. 2 - The second issues is that these stairs are 'see through'. From deck seven as you descend, you are looking not just two decks down to deck 5, but also right down to water level (the equivalent of more than five decks). For me this is not a big deal, but for those with a fear of heights it is. Very detailed description of the problems you observed. As one who has not yet managed to make it aboard a Coastal, I've only been able to live vicariously through this board. Your descriptions, while entirely concise and clear enough to paint me the mental picture, leave me lacking the "look and feel" of the problem - I know what it is though. I've gone back through some of the various photo sites to try to see if there was any pics that represented this problem, but have yet to come up with any (not saying they are not out there, just haven't stumbled on them yet!). Therefore, a special PHOTO REQUEST to get images of these problem areas. Please and thank you to those that can assist. The first part of the problem can be addressed easily by "re-capping" the stairs with a different "pattern" of perforated non-slip. I am not sure that the second part can be addressed, and those with phobias or vertigo should probably refrain from using those stairs. |
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Post by Dane on Mar 22, 2008 22:38:43 GMT -8
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Post by DENelson83 on Mar 23, 2008 1:50:35 GMT -8
You know, we discussed in the last CR thread about what might happen if a toddler were to try to mount those stairs. One major concern, though. There needs to be a full width steel screen welded at the underside of the stair frame. Otherwise, unattended babies will crawl through the stairs, onto the rescue boat area, and overboard. Hope the bottoms of these foreground railings aren't high enough for the little ones to crawl through, either. My concerns.  |
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Post by Hardy on Mar 23, 2008 6:45:14 GMT -8
Dane: thanks for the picture of the stairs. I'd found that (or one similar) somewhere. Unfortunately, what it does not show clearly, and what is likely the issue, is the 'caps' or tops of the stairs. While I agree that it is hazardous no matter the surface, for someone in STILETTO heels to attempt stairs, there should be some compromise made in terms of the size of the opening in the perforated stair tread. If the openings are currently large enough to swallow a CANE, then I think that they are too open/big. As for 'openness' or vertigo from the staircase, I'd actually need the OPPOSITE picture to what you have -- one from up top looking down the staircase (and incidentally, that would show the treads of the stairs as well). I do appreciate the quick reply with picture to my request -- if anyone out there has others, or is planning a sail on the CR, you have a project before you now!  Afterthought - from Dane's pic, I can't see a steepness issue going UP the stairs, other than there is a lot of them - they look fine to me.... |
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Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 23, 2008 7:05:16 GMT -8
I would never get my Mom up those stairs. She has a thing about stairs without risers even in a house not alone on a ship where you can see down to the water. It would be simple to weld an angled backer that runs up the each of the two runs. It would have to be perforated at points to allow for water to drain through.
The holes in the treads are a different story. There is a water permiable rubberized product you often see nailed to stairs in Quebec because of the ice and snow there. It can be used on concrete as well. Because it is a semi open pore product the water doesn't gather too badly on it and it doesn't trap as much moisture as rubber itself. I am not sure how much it would increase rusting in a marine salt water environment. Slip proof and preventing high heels from getting stuck.
On navy ships stairs are often simply mesh because no one is expected to wear high heels. A humourous asside about that concerns an Easter Sunrise Service held on the USN Eisenhower is appropriate for this morning.
Not sure if they are still doing it post 9/11, but whatever aircraft carrier was tied up at the Norfolk Navy Base used to host a sunrise service on Easter Sunday. They would have one of the elevators lowered to the hangar deck and a large set of stairs (I would guess three stories high) with a number of sections and landings to allow easy access up for the public. On this particular time we arrived at the same time as the special guests, Cissy Houston (Whitney's Mom) the well known gospel singer. The whole family turned out because it coincided with Whitney's Welcome Home from the Gulf and was at the peak of her career. Cissy was in a cast as she had broken an ankle. Two big strapping marines carried her up these steep mesh stairs and another took her wheel chair. She had a whole group from a local church with her as well as family. Being Easter all the ladies were in high heels, hats and new Easter dresses. A whole group of midshipmen were summoned because the ladies and girls were getting stuck. The mesh was really rough and if they went up in stocking feet their nylons would have been shredded. Everyone including Cissy laughed so hard for quite a while over all this. A number of speakers made various quipes about it. At the end of the service a klaxon sounded and the fireproof doors that separated the bays of the hangar deck opened. The ships galley always baked pastries and made donuts that tasted almost as good as my grandmothers. Timmies and Dunkin were put to shame.
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Post by Ferryman on Mar 23, 2008 8:49:04 GMT -8
Don't forget that the stairs aren't the be all, end all, of getting up to the sundeck. Theres an elevator (or two) which will take you right up to that deck. That is the way which is assumed people will take, who have disabilities and can't handle the stairs. Personally I rather climb that staircase on the Renaissance, than the traditional exterior stair cases you see on all of the ferries. I proved my point on the Queen of Tsawwassen back in December when I rode down the stairs on my butt, after slipping on the top step. All of those stairs are just checker plated steel, with a coat of paint on them.
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Post by Hardy on Mar 23, 2008 10:51:13 GMT -8
On the case of the stairs - I don't think that they would go for a fully enclosed back-side of the staircase, as there will be too much of a potential for corrosion behind it. The only thing that I could see happening might be covering up the front of the riser with something, but leaving the back of the stairs open.
I think that the fix for the treads/tops of the stairs is simpler. I can't see them adding a membrane atop of it, but there is a finer "guage" perf-ed metal, like what is used as "steps" on truck fuel tanks. It would probably still allow a very narrow heel to penetrate, but would stop any sensible shoe from going through. It has enough texture and enough opening that all water and most snow/ice would pass through it uninhibited.
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Post by WettCoast on Mar 23, 2008 11:25:01 GMT -8
 My son with my cane - CR - 19 Mar 2008 - photo © JST |
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Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 23, 2008 12:25:29 GMT -8
Those are similar but even larger holes than the military ships I have been on. A thin high heel would get caught in those but not the end of the cane in the picture.
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Post by kylefossett on Mar 23, 2008 12:33:17 GMT -8
same types of stairs are used at many ski resorts around the province. ski boots with icy snowy bottoms on icy stairs. there have been incidents but nothing drastic. these stairs are probably the best set up. i don't think they would have installed them without any thought.
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Post by Hardy on Mar 23, 2008 12:48:52 GMT -8
Thanks for the pic of your son with the cane in question. I would tend to agree that those stairs have a very 'aggressive' tread pattern which could be problematic; your pic clearly illustrates that, thanks for the clarity (again).
This issue being what it is, I would suggest that it is brought to the attention of BCFerries. I am guessing that on paper and in practice it looked and worked out just fine, but until you turn the public lose on things like this, sometimes the wrinkles don't show up.
My point of view on this is that (a) the stairs are okay BUT they could definitely be made considerably safer to a larger majority of the travelling public.
(I think that someone with a cane is a more serious potential hazard than someone with high heels - afterall, you CHOSE to wear high heels, but a cane is not something that you are obviously using as a fashion accessory!)
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Neil
Voyager 
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Post by Neil on Mar 23, 2008 13:32:47 GMT -8
Those are similar but even larger holes than the military ships I have been on. A thin high heel would get caught in those but not the end of the cane in the picture. Shame on our navy, for not taking into account the safety of it's crewmen who choose to wear high heels. Very discriminatory.  Brings to mind the Village People, 'In the Navy'. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 23, 2008 14:00:24 GMT -8
Those are similar but even larger holes than the military ships I have been on. A thin high heel would get caught in those but not the end of the cane in the picture. Shame on our navy, for not taking into account the safety of it's crewmen who choose to wear high heels. Very discriminatory. Brings to mind the Village People, 'In the Navy'. But Neil, you need to remember that the Navy is a place to work, not for fashion. Although you can find pleasure and search for treasure, it's still primarily to learn science technology. And although you can learn to fly, play in sports and skin-dive, the primary focus is to study oceanography. Neil, your comment about the Navy being discriminatory seems contrary to your regular attitude of a macho man. Have you changed your tune, where you've now got to be a "P.C. Man"? Getting back to the original topic of the Navy: It's not really a place where you can get yourself clean, have a good meal and do whatever you feel. Although the sailors do get to hang out with all the boys. So there's no need to feel down; they should be able to pick themselves off the ground. Getting back to the Coastal Renaissance issue, do you think the ship is unhappy because it's in a new town? ps: Does anyone know of any gender-specific athletic clubs where it's fun to stay at? I was looking to the east, but I think that I may have to go west. I've heard that life is peaceful there, in the open air........similar to the outside staircase on the Coastal Renaissance. |
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Mar 23, 2008 16:38:32 GMT -8
Neil, your comment about the Navy being discriminatory seems contrary to your regular attitude of a macho man. Have you changed your tune, where you've now got to be a "P.C. Man"? There is no contradiction between being P.C. and being macho. Just look at Jack Layton. I mean.. just look at him. Or did you mean 'Progressive Conservative'? It's not commonly known, but Village People lyrics were actually penned by a guy named Dylan, writing under an alias, so I'm glad to see they're being analyzed in the manner they deserve. Apologies to C.R. fans for this diversion. |
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Quatchi
Voyager
Engineering Officer - CCG
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Post by Quatchi on Mar 23, 2008 18:24:11 GMT -8
I think the purpose of that staircase is for emergency purposes not daily use. I do beleive the doors on deck 7 were designed as the main use doors. Here are a couple of my reasonings to this.
1)I know that in architectural terms and with the BC building code if you have a public exterior space (eg. rooftop garden or public balcony) in a building you have to provide an alternate exiting choice so people don't have to go back inside to get out of the building in case of a fire or emergency. This is the exact same material that would probably be used. I am thinking there is something similar to this rule in the marine industry.
2) Also, the stairs are 2 stories tall thats a long way up and kind of backwards to what you would expect. ( You have to go sown one flight and up 2 to get to deck 7 from the main passenger deck). Also they conveniently lead from the deck 7 to the evacuation area.
I think there is nothing wrong with the staircase. I think they are for emergency purposes and not for daily use as BCF had originally shown. I think FSG has designed a very good ship and the issue of no protection for the door is not a major error. It was probably thought that the doors would be shielded by the solarium from the winds. This is the first time BCF has had a passenger door this high on a ship and unprotected by an alcove. In my mind a minuscule design error that is easily fixed later in a refit.
Remember its the proto-type vessel, like everything else the more you do it the better it is. I'm pretty sure the efficient Germans over there will have things like this fixed with CC before she leaves FSG, and the CI before she enters service.
Cheers,
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Post by Hardy on Mar 23, 2008 20:25:25 GMT -8
Echoing Cadmonkey's statement, and re-iterating my own, the "fix" for the unprotected doorways is relatively minor in terms of a retrofit solution. On the grand scheme of things, this too, like the stairs, is a minor design flaw that more likely than not, would not become apparent until the ship was in full revenue service. How many "testers" ran around the ship like crazed weasels during it's sea trials at 15+ knots and tried to open every door in every cross-wind situation? Few to none? Bingo. And most of the people crawling around the ship were probably NOT women in high heels or physically challenged with canes or crutches. Therefore, the stair situation never came to light.
I myself never wear anything other than sneakers or workboots (unless it is a wedding or a funeral) so I would have no trouble navigating the stairs either. I doubt Markus wandered the stairs in a formal evening gown and bright red pumps to test the stair treads! (or did you, Markus??)
The retrofit (if there is one) on the stairs could be as simple as putting a new tread overtop of the very open grate design, or as indepth as resurfacing the stairs completely. That is, of course, if it is deemed a serious enough issue.
In terms of RISK MANAGEMENT, if it was up to me, I would probably do something about the stairs rather than risk an injury claim. All things considered, it should be a relatively easy and inexpensive fix too.
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Post by Ferryman on Mar 23, 2008 20:45:15 GMT -8
On the vessel tracking page on Route 2, I'm watching the Coquitlam going 18.3 knots, which is somewhat in the lead. Then the Renaissance is right behind her, pushing 22 knots.
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Post by kylefossett on Mar 23, 2008 20:47:09 GMT -8
In terms of RISK MANAGEMENT, if it was up to me, I would probably do something about the stairs rather than risk an injury claim. All things considered, it should be a relatively easy and inexpensive fix too. risk management, of the stair issue. all they legally have to do is provide reasonable safety to the passengers, this could be closing the stairs off or posting signs informing of how steep they are. |
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Mar 23, 2008 20:51:26 GMT -8
Chris, that is what is called a Coastal Renaissance sandwich.
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Post by coastalcody on Mar 23, 2008 20:59:20 GMT -8
Whats going on, Chris, is that the Coquitlam was scheduled to have a sailing from Hsb at 8:00 but it was cancelled so she headed back off to Dpb and the Renaissance had a 9:00 sailing from Hsb. The Coq did stay at horseshoe bay for a while, and then left, if you look now the Cr has passed the Coquitlam now
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Post by Hardy on Mar 24, 2008 7:14:48 GMT -8
risk management, of the stair issue. all they legally have to do is provide reasonable safety to the passengers, this could be closing the stairs off or posting signs informing of how steep they are. It's not the steepness, it's the coarseness of the grating on the stairs. As you say, all they have to do is close them off, but when the inside stairs are closed, then there is no secondary means of access other than the elevator, and that is against code as well. Warning signs are the bare minimum that they should be doing at this point in regards to the staircase, but looking forward, resurfacing them with a slightly less coarse grating would be best all around. <edit to fix spell checking error> |
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Post by DENelson83 on Mar 24, 2008 8:18:50 GMT -8
That would be "coarse," not "course."
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Post by herrbrinkmann on Mar 24, 2008 8:47:39 GMT -8
Thanks for all the comments of the stairs. I am wondering, that the stairs have been opened for daily use. I know, that the vessel was designed without these large outside stairs. There are enough escape ways but our beloved Transport Canada did not allow without extra stairs on the outside.
There have beeen long discussion about that but we had to put the outer stais at a very late design stage. So they should only be for emergency use. They are not so comfortable and I admit that it is a long way to look down...
I will give your comments regarding the grating to our outfitting department responsible for the stairs.
I also admit that door stoppers should be able to hold also against strong winds.
Let´s see, how this will be fixed.
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Post by Hardy on Mar 24, 2008 13:57:16 GMT -8
Careful, Markus, or we'll send these two back for you to repair PERSONALLY! I don't think that the "door closers" themselves are the issue, rather that the doorways are not shielded at all from the wind. Older designs of the ferries that we use, had almost a zig-zag partition-like set up on the "forward" side of the exterior doors, or, the doors themselves were recessed within an 'enclave'. I don't know, but there should be some decent pictures available on someone's website to illustrate the 'zig-zag partition-like' set up -- maybe someone could post it here to save searching for it. As for the tread pattern on the stairs, yes, that would be worth looking at, and again, as I say, it is more than likely an easy fix. |
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Post by Dane on Mar 24, 2008 21:03:25 GMT -8
Queen of Oak Bay 6:30 AM 6:30 AM 8:10 AM On Time Coastal Renaissance 8:30 AM 8:34 AM 10:11 AM On Time Queen of Oak Bay 10:30 AM 10:33 AM 12:10 PM On Time Coastal Renaissance 12:30 PM 12:48 PM 2:24 PM Traffic delays Queen of Oak Bay 3:00 PM 3:00 PM 4:37 PM On Time Queen of Coquitlam 4:00 PM 4:04 PM 5:42 PM On Time Coastal Renaissance 5:00 PM 5:06 PM 6:35 PM On Time Queen of Oak Bay 7:00 PM 7:04 PM 8:38 PM On Time Queen of Coquitlam 8:00 PM 8:00 PM 9:39 PM On Time Coastal Renaissance 9:00 PM 9:00 PM ETA: 10:35 PM On Time Great day for the CR, heavy traffic and right on time |
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