COASTAL RENAISSANCE - Photos & Discussion

[Quatchi]

Thanks Markus,

I thought the stair issue was a code thing not a design feature. ;D In the Architecture business we have to do the same thing. We bend over backwards for the guys who make the codes.

Regarding the doors on existing vessels I have quickly drawn a diagram of what is on the Spirits and V's, the C's don't have this issue as most of there doors are inside the solarium's.

Hopefully this will help you understand what we already have and what we as arm chair engineers are probably thinking of. If it turns out to be a real problem It would be easy for BCF to weld in some steel glass frames like on the spirits stern decks to the deck and wall and problem is solved. Or maybe it is a simple as a stronger closer.

Cheers, and thanks again for joining our discussion Markus

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

hardy said:

Careful, Markus, or we'll send these two back for you to repair PERSONALLY!

I don't think that the "door closers" themselves are the issue, rather that the doorways are not shielded at all from the wind. Older designs of the ferries that we use, had almost a zig-zag partition-like set up on the "forward" side of the exterior doors, or, the doors themselves were recessed within an 'enclave'. I don't know, but there should be some decent pictures available on someone's website to illustrate the 'zig-zag partition-like' set up -- maybe someone could post it here to save searching for it.

The closer is supposed to be able to close the door, and hold it closed, up to a certain wind velocity, no matter how exposed the door is. However, the caveat is, how strong can you make the closer and still make it possible for your typical human to open the door . Here's the question I would like answered. Did someone decide that the the closer was too strong, and made a little "adjustment"? Somehow, I think this is more likely than no one noticing the problem during shakedown.

[Kam]

ferryman said:

On the vessel tracking page on Route 2, I'm watching the Coquitlam going 18.3 knots, which is somewhat in the lead. Then the Renaissance is right behind her, pushing 22 knots.

Hehe... I was on the Renaissance that trip. It was a fun race!

[Hardy]

bcinnj said:

The closer is supposed to be able to close the door, and hold it closed, up to a certain wind velocity, no matter how exposed the door is.

I think that the problem was/is, that once the door is open, the wind is either keeping it open/not allowing it to close properly, or, alternately that the wind is catching the door and damaging the opener by blowing the door further open.

Remember, I have not been aboard CR yet to see what the problem could be, but I have experienced wind damage to doors being open and BLOWN open further (bending the opener, tearing bolts out etc).

I would suspect this could be the issue, but without firsthand knowledge, I am only guessing.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

hardy said:

bcinnj said:

The closer is supposed to be able to close the door, and hold it closed, up to a certain wind velocity, no matter how exposed the door is.

I think that the problem was/is, that once the door is open, the wind is either keeping it open/not allowing it to close properly, or, alternately that the wind is catching the door and damaging the opener by blowing the door further open.

Remember, I have not been aboard CR yet to see what the problem could be, but I have experienced wind damage to doors being open and BLOWN open further (bending the opener, tearing bolts out etc).

I would suspect this could be the issue, but without firsthand knowledge, I am only guessing.

mmm...that was what I was getting at, the closer is supposed to be able to close the door from the open position up to a rated wind velocity.

When you see bolts (more likely lags or screws ) being torn out, the wind velocity was likely in excess of the design limit for the closer. If the door is not closing, the closer is not strong enough i.e. not pulling hard enough...now that said, most closers have adjustments to increase or decrease the strength of their "pull", thus my comment about "a little adjustment"...doors will sometimes slam when the closer is set strong enough to achieve its design closing strength and that amount of "pull" in not needed.

Now, a well designed closer should have a multi-valve system that helps to prevent slamming by staging the amount of pull...more pull is needed when the door is all the way open, less as it closes. Often, each of these stages has an individual adjustment, and if you adjust the wrong one, you might achieve the desired effect of eliminating slamming, but, in actuality, you have just reduced the overall closing power instead of the last stage which was the actual culprit...again, back to my "little adjustment" comment ;D (lol...for those of you who are Corner Gas fans...refer to the episode where the closer breaks on the door) Long-winded, but I have seen closers installed and adjusted incorrectly too many times not to suspect this as the culprit.

[Scott]

This evening I spent 3 1/2 hours straight on the Coastal Renaissance and made a few observations.

The outside stairs were open on one side of the ship (south side) but closed on the other side. Access to Level 7 was also open at either end via the "outside" stairways. However, all access to Level 7 from the inside of the ship was blocked off and all the doors on Level 7 were locked. I overheard a crew member say that they'll be locked until they can set up some sort of wind guard for the doors.

Level 5 was closed to passengers (except for stairwells). However, neither sailings (5PM from Horseshoe Bay and 7PM from Departure Bay) were all that busy and it didn't seem very crowded.

I went down to the upper car deck (after hearing someone on the forum comment on how nice the "windows" were down there) for the first time actually. What a nice deck! The huge windows and high ceiling make it seem very open and spacious. You can stand by the windows and get quite a bit of shelter from the wind. I talked with a deckhand down there for a minute or two and he told me that they love the ferry. Says they can save 7-8 minutes loading the ferry just because there aren't any nooks and crannies ... they have a clear view right down to the other end.

[Low Light Mike]

I did some Coastal ship watching from Departure Bay beach, this evening.

I saw the Coastal Renaissance arrive at Departure Bay, from her 5:00pm sailing; right on time.

Here are my impressions (from my beach vantage point, with binoculars):

- Nice cutting of the bow through the water, when observing the vessel at regular speed. Nice white water cut from the bow.

- She sounded her boring sounding 1-tone horn, just outside of the entrance to Departure Bay. I was hoping for the music-chord horn instead. I was disappointed.

- There are enclosed, outside staircases at each end of the ship that run from Deck-7 down to Deck 5 (or maybe even down to 4?). I haven't noticed these before, as that long outside staircase by the rescue-boat always grabbed my attention.

- As she approached the berth, I could hear the helicopter sound, faintly across the bay.

[Political Incorrectness]

They go from deck 7 to deck 5 usually used for emergencies only except now due to the deck 7 doors violently closing and opening due to wind, they have the staircases in use.

Here are some things to do in the near future:
Get rid of corny arrival music
Redo the deck 7 to 5 stairs
Switch out 1 tone horn button for all 3 horns
Get some sort of windbreaker for the deck 7 doors.

[Balfour]

I think the music is linked to some video that plays on the TV screens on board but they have to play it on the rest of the ship. I think BCF is trying to make their ships as cruise ship like as possible. The type of music that it is, seems to be something that would be constantly playing in Disneyland.

[DENelson83]

Yes, the ship PA announcements are indeed linked to what's on the video screens on the CR. But when I was onboard, I didn't hear any music in the background of the announcements.

[Dane]

denelson83 said:

Yes, the ship PA announcements are indeed linked to what's on the video screens on the CR. But when I was onboard, I didn't hear any music in the background of the announcements.

I think it's just between the departure announcements.... ie

"Bus passengers please depart.... music ..... vehcile passengers.... music.....foot passengers.

It's very inspirational.

[doctorcad]

bcinnj said:

hardy said:

I think that the problem was/is, that once the door is open, the wind is either keeping it open/not allowing it to close properly, or, alternately that the wind is catching the door and damaging the opener by blowing the door further open.

Remember, I have not been aboard CR yet to see what the problem could be, but I have experienced wind damage to doors being open and BLOWN open further (bending the opener, tearing bolts out etc).

I would suspect this could be the issue, but without firsthand knowledge, I am only guessing.

mmm...that was what I was getting at, the closer is supposed to be able to close the door from the open position up to a rated wind velocity.

When you see bolts (more likely lags or screws ) being torn out, the wind velocity was likely in excess of the design limit for the closer. If the door is not closing, the closer is not strong enough i.e. not pulling hard enough...now that said, most closers have adjustments to increase or decrease the strength of their "pull", thus my comment about "a little adjustment"...doors will sometimes slam when the closer is set strong enough to achieve its design closing strength and that amount of "pull" in not needed.

Now, a well designed closer should have a multi-valve system that helps to prevent slamming by staging the amount of pull...more pull is needed when the door is all the way open, less as it closes. Often, each of these stages has an individual adjustment, and if you adjust the wrong one, you might achieve the desired effect of eliminating slamming, but, in actuality, you have just reduced the overall closing power instead of the last stage which was the actual culprit...again, back to my "little adjustment" comment ;D (lol...for those of you who are Corner Gas fans...refer to the episode where the closer breaks on the door) Long-winded, but I have seen closers installed and adjusted incorrectly too many times not to suspect this as the culprit.

Exterior doors are almost always held closed by a latch. The closer should not be required to keep the door shut. The door closer is intended to, you guessed it, close the door. It would be impossible to set the closer to work properly in all conditions, ie. powerful enough to close against a strong wind but delicate enough to prevent slamming while the ship is stopped in the terminal.

I have not been aboard the CR yet, but suspect the problem is identified beautifuly by Cadmunkey's diagram in this thread. It's likely that the power of the wind in that area was underestimated by the designers.

[Political Incorrectness]

Markus, I got one question, why are all the doors to deck 7 on one side? What I noticed from an end #2 perspective in the plans is that there are areas of storage from what it looks like where the stairwells inside on the ship lead to deck 7. Would it actually be possible on the stairwells nearest to the ends to add passageways to the other side of the ship? Also how would it look with a door in an alcove? Thanks!

[herrbrinkmann]

ferrymaniac101 said:

Markus, I got one question, why are all the doors to deck 7 on one side? What I noticed from an end #2 perspective in the plans is that there are areas of storage from what it looks like where the stairwells inside on the ship lead to deck 7. Would it actually be possible on the stairwells nearest to the ends to add passageways to the other side of the ship? Also how would it look with a door in an alcove? Thanks!

I took a close look at our plan, it is not possible to have the doors also on the other side as there are HVAC-room and enginners workshop. See the layout here:
www.fsg-ship.de/2product/1prod/pdf/FSG_SchiffsDB_SuperC-Class.pdf?size=479KB

I suppose it could be possible to get the doors inside the casing in an alcove but I do not know what Transport Canada will say about that

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

doctorcad said:

bcinnj said:

mmm...that was what I was getting at, the closer is supposed to be able to close the door from the open position up to a rated wind velocity.

When you see bolts (more likely lags or screws ) being torn out, the wind velocity was likely in excess of the design limit for the closer. If the door is not closing, the closer is not strong enough i.e. not pulling hard enough...now that said, most closers have adjustments to increase or decrease the strength of their "pull", thus my comment about "a little adjustment"...doors will sometimes slam when the closer is set strong enough to achieve its design closing strength and that amount of "pull" in not needed.

Now, a well designed closer should have a multi-valve system that helps to prevent slamming by staging the amount of pull...more pull is needed when the door is all the way open, less as it closes. Often, each of these stages has an individual adjustment, and if you adjust the wrong one, you might achieve the desired effect of eliminating slamming, but, in actuality, you have just reduced the overall closing power instead of the last stage which was the actual culprit...again, back to my "little adjustment" comment ;D (lol...for those of you who are Corner Gas fans...refer to the episode where the closer breaks on the door) Long-winded, but I have seen closers installed and adjusted incorrectly too many times not to suspect this as the culprit.

Exterior doors are almost always held closed by a latch. The closer should not be required to keep the door shut. The door closer is intended to, you guessed it, close the door. It would be impossible to set the closer to work properly in all conditions, ie. powerful enough to close against a strong wind but delicate enough to prevent slamming while the ship is stopped in the terminal.

I have not been aboard the CR yet, but suspect the problem is identified beautifuly by Cadmunkey's diagram in this thread. It's likely that the power of the wind in that area was underestimated by the designers.

Actually, many doors are not held closed by their latch. If you observe a commercial storefront during your travels, you will see the latch is only used to lock the door when not in use. The door is held closed by the strength of the closer's "pull". In addition, the closer on a door that actually has a latch still needs to be strong enough to close the door, and hold it closed up to a rated wind speed. Often these doors open outward so that the strength of the closer can be reduced...as you expect significantly higher wind velocities on the exterior of your building which would tend to push the door closed in most scenarios.

As I stated before though, typically the "strength" of this "pull" can be adjusted, with the rating of the closer usually being the maximum "pull" it can exert. This is what lead me to question whether the door closer was under-designed, or if someone had adjusted the closing tension.

[Hardy]

Just to chime in here, as I do most of the light maintenance on my building, and door closers are a constant source of adjustment for me. Most commercial door closers have 2 or even 3 adjustments. The first is how hard and fast the door closes from maximum opening to about 15-degrees from closed. The second adjustment (usually set slower and softer) is for the last part of the travel to the striker plate and door jam, to prevent the door from slamming with such force that it will cause noise/vibration complaints, or even damage the door (think glass window on a door shattering or cracking from excessive closing force). I find it trickiest to balance these two settings to get a fast and quiet closing door. There is obviously a tradeoff.

(A third stage, on some newer closers, is for opening past 90-degree to reduce stress on the closer - you typically set this lighter/softer than the main swing setting).

I would guess that we are talking about this here too (but without all the detail). I would expect that the closers on the ferry are set much the way the ones in my building are -- hard->soft. Therefore, there should be no problem "cranking them up" (if there is any more adjustment) to get them to closer harder for the majority of their swing. The problem becomes the last little bit, where you don't want them slamming. There is a solution to this as well, but not an elegant one. You add a second closer to assist, where the second one only kicks in on that last part of the sweep with a very firm but delayed pull. You set the original closer to a softer setting, and basically have it 'retarding' the second closer to prevent slamming. Of course, if you are relying on the closer to keep the door shut in high winds, you are dreaming. You need a one-way latch to do that properly, because closers are designed to CLOSE the door, not hold them shut. They will do so to a certain point, but that is not what they are designed to do, especially not in a very windy environment.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Okay, I have to argue with everyone about the role of closers it looks like!

Closers can be used two different ways. The first, which everyone seems to have latched onto is the role of closing the door at which point a latch will keep it closed to a much higher level of force than the closer can. In this usage, typically the closer won't exert a lot of force in the closed position, but it can be set to apply force even in the closed position. This is true for a typical man door with a one way latch as Hardy was referring too.

But on a storefront door, the role of a closer is more than that. A storefront door doesn't rely on a latch to hold it closed, the closer is used to both close the door and to hold it shut...that is why, in some stores you will find the door hard to open, and in others not so bad...it, as Hardy pointed out, can be tricky to get the various adjustments balanced correctly...even for an experienced installer. The closer is designed to hold the door shut against a certain amount of force...anything over that will force the door open, be it wind, or a person exerting force to open the door. Typically this isn't an issue, but in high wind the closer will sometimes be overpowered, and the door will blow open...these doors receive a deadbolt or swing bolt to both lock the door and hold it shut in times when the closer can't.

A more elegant solution to the whole closer issue is to provide a powered closer. With this type of closer, substantially higher closing forces can be provided without making it impossible for the typical human to open the door. You see these used most often in powered ADA-style doors where they are used to make doors accessible to people who would otherwise be unable to open the door if a standard closer was used. However, they are not limited to such use.

[doctorcad]

As for the comparison of a storefront door to an exposed exterior door on a ship, well, there is no comparison. The only exterior doors I know of on the fleet that aren't fitted with latches are the vehicle deck draft doors on the B, V and C class vessels. These are the doors at the base of passenger stairwells leading up from the vehicle decks. The doors operate just like storefront doors, but are backed up by fire doors held open by electro-magnetic holdbacks.

Am I missing something?

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

No, lol...you're not...my argument, for argument's sake, was more with how closers are used in general, and the different operating modes...if you look at what I said in my last post, I clarified that I believe the doors in question are likely a latch type.

In the absence of a powered closer, you would be hard pressed to find a person able to open these doors if the closer provided enough force to keep the door shut given the typical conditions experienced in operation.

[herrbrinkmann]

*RING*
Today I saw the change massage in our quality improvement system: windbreakers to be installed on the upper deck.
parts to be fabricated:18
parts for 735: 6

You can calculate yourself: There are enough also for 734 and 735.
It will be a bend pipe mounted to the longitudinal wall with acryl inside. abt. 800mm wide.

[Mirrlees]

Thanks, Markus we knew that FSG would have a solution to this teething-pain...

[Ferryman]

Was talking with a good friend of mine, who has been working on the CR lately...and was actually given a pay raise to work on the vessel....

Apparently the CR will be moved to Route 30 instead of the CI in May. This is due to a certain level of vibrations with the CR which has been causing problems with crew members. Somehow it's giving crew members lower back pain, with the frequency of vibration, which is different from other vessels.

Personally I find this hard to grasp, as I felt very little to no vibrations on board the CR. The only vibration you might feel is the engine noise I'd assume.

Does anyone have anymore details regarding this?

[DENelson83]

Weird... An unexpected infrasound problem?

[Kam]

ferryman said:

Was talking with a good friend of mine, who has been working on the CR lately...and was actually given a pay raise to work on the vessel....

Apparently the CR will be moved to Route 30 instead of the CI in May. This is due to a certain level of vibrations with the CR which has been causing problems with crew members. Somehow it's giving crew members lower back pain, with the frequency of vibration, which is different from other vessels.

Personally I find this hard to grasp, as I felt very little to no vibrations on board the CR. The only vibration you might feel is the engine noise I'd assume.

Does anyone have anymore details regarding this?

Good grief... that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.

[DENelson83]

Or, to quote Stephen Colbert, "That's the Craziest F@#%ing Thing I've Ever Heard!"