PACIFICAT EXPLORER, DISCOVERY, VOYAGER - Photos & Discussion

[Mill Bay]

cadmunkey said:

Yeah I think it is just another round of reporters reporting and not researching. I don't Know what you think Mill Bay, but the Chilliwack papers always seem to have incorrect or misleading information in them. I guess thats just a side-affect of our deadline word we live in.

Cheers,

I did work experience at both Chilliwack papers some years ago, as at one time i was considering a career in journalism (which may still happen) and I found that overall, the Progress was by far the more scholarly of the two. You have to consider that, at the community level newspaper, the time scale is very much more compressed in some cases when putting material together, but there still needs to be an emphasis on correctness as they are an outlet for information to the general community.

As I see it though, for an example of a poorly done newspaper, the Province is a prime example. At that level of circulation, staffing, funding, etc. they really do let things slide a lot of the time. Even if it's just something like awkward sentences or word order, it can still have a tremendous effect in spreading unclear or untrue information. But, in this case, the statement you're referring to is not only misleading, it is bordering on being false information, especially when you consider how easy it would have been to locate the correct information.

[Mike C]

Anyway, I'm going out to see this exhibit this weekend, have a look around. It'll hopefully be an interesting opportunity to learn about the ferries and why they suck(ed).

[coastalcody]

You dont know why they sucked?
I can give my own personal reasons.
You arent allowed to sit in your car and sleep.
The ferry is so cramped its crazy.
You have like 20 feet of space outside and if its windy you werent allowed. Too dangerous
You had to watch a 30 minute annoying as hell ( unless you have seen it you dont even know how bad it was) video.
When the ferry ran over logs you would hear a big like fart noise.

Other problems. Were they couldnt carry that many trucks. Basically went no faster then the c class vessel because of the turn around time. Constanly broke down due to the engines getting clogged with logs and so much more.

I personally would have liked them to try the ferries on the inside passage. Hey what the hell its faster. Or maby the prince rupert to skidegate and make a couple cabins.


You had to watch this boring

[Retrovision]

>golf clap<

This is just the sort of diversity that I was getting at in my recent welcome to new members including you, coastalcody, in particular, words from a not just novel but new perspective. Your prose, intended or not, enriches our forum, thank you.

[coastalcody]

Im thinking you meant that as a compliment?

[Mike C]

coastalcody said:

You dont know why they sucked?
I can give my own personal reasons.
You arent allowed to sit in your car and sleep.
The ferry is so cramped its crazy.
You have like 20 feet of space outside and if its windy you werent allowed. Too dangerous
You had to watch a 30 minute annoying as hell ( unless you have seen it you dont even know how bad it was) video.
When the ferry ran over logs you would hear a big like fart noise.

Other problems. Were they couldnt carry that many trucks. Basically went no faster then the c class vessel because of the turn around time. Constanly broke down due to the engines getting clogged with logs and so much more.

I know why they suck, I was just saying...

I want to find out what the 'hell was going through Glen Clark's brain when he dreamed up this unlikely and ineffective scheme.

[coastalcody]

O i can tell you that to seeing as he is good friends with my grandpa

[Nick]

In theory, the Pacificats were a pretty good idea. Create a new industry here, creating new jobs and have a product that can be exported all over the world. Take a look at what Australia has right now with Incat designs etc, they have the biggest fast ferry industry in the world. The problem was, our local waters are not suited to fast ferries. period. There is just too much junk in the water, along with too many NIMBYs along the shoreline.

The actual design of the ship was pretty good too (I am speaking from a structure/design point of view, not from a passenger's point of view) before BCF and the directors got their hands on it. If that bow door was designed properly, it wouldn't need 60 tons of ballast in the stern, and wouldn't consume so much fuel. If they used gas turbines as originally designed, they would be much lighter, and again use less fuel. If it was lighter, again it wouldn't have sat so low in the water and might not have made such a big wake.

Also, the blame resides with the liberal government as well, for selling them for 20million when their SCRAP METAL value was more than that.

Now, having said all that, it was a project that was mismanaged from the start, and was doomed almost from the get-go.

[Deleted]

Does anybody have good pictures of the fast cats?

Both in service and out of service. And any interior pictures? Seems very hard to find any.

[queenofcowichan]

I was on the innagual sailing on the Pacifcat Explorer, Incase you are wondering it WAS the fastest trip I ever made to Hoseshoe Bay, We were in Horseshoe Bay approaching the berth 56 minutes after leaving Departure Bay! I bet you we could have been fully docked in under 1 hour if it was not for the bow door.

[Quinsam]

I wonder what Seaspan is gonna use the Pacificats for.

[Ferryman]

Here's an idea...
www.sfu.ca/casr/mp-navalsc4.htm

[Quinsam]

OH MY GOODNESS!

[QSaanich]

WOOW

[Ferryman]

Also, read the note on the very bottom of that page...

[Quinsam]

You you mean, a few Pacificats could run the Langdale-HSB run?
Wow, the surrey will have time for other routes then.

[Political Incorrectness]

Harry if you dream so much why dont you dream of a bridge from HSB to Naniamo? That would solve alot of problems.

[Ferryman]

Dan if you looked at the bottom of that website, you would of noticed this little blurb.....

* Since its politically-motivated Pacificat ‘fire sale’, the British Columbia government has also begun the privatization of BC Ferries itself. DND’s Pacificat opportunity is not indefinite. The new BC Ferries Corporation is investigating selling-off its less profitable routes. If the other routes follow, one potential operator of the profitable Horseshoe Bay-Langdale run has, reportedly, expressed interest in Pacificats.

So this wasn't one of Harrys dreams, but I had never heard anything like this until I saw this site...

[Quinsam]

Thanks for that, but I think a bridge from Nanaimo-North Van would be impossible for the following reasons:

1. Earthquakes, will destroy millions of Damage worth of a bridge.
2. Cruise Ships and Freightors, will not be able to go under the bridge, causing catastrophees.
3. The Currents of the Strait of Georgia will sweep the Bridge away.
4. The Strait is too deep for the foundations.

[Political Incorrectness]

Technology is improving and I think maybe someday you could probably do that but the piers would have to be very large in order to support a bridge across the Georgia Strait. I have not known any earthquake to strike BC. Harry your 2nd reason can be got around very easily called make a suspension bridge but I have heard of an idea called a submerged floating tunnel which would work much better but would cost alot too.

A submerged floating tunnel is suspended in water and has a controlled balas system (not sure how to spell that) Tethers suspend it to the floor of the body of water. They can be slackened so that ocean currents can make the tunnel sway just a bit to absorb it. The idea has not yet been tested but it may be a solution instead of a bridge.

[Curtis]

BC's South Coast is expecting a big earthquake soon it could happen tommorrow or in 1 month even in 10 years

[Ferryman]

The last I recall ever to hit BC that caused concerns was in February of 2000, and it did the most damage in Seattle.

[Doug]

That Website is old and BC Ferries has since confirmed they are not contracting out many routes besides the six designated in 2003. Even those may not be contracted out, however, apparently BC Ferries feels the Mill Bay route is unnecessary, and will likely be rid of the system. The Horseshoe Bay-Langdale contracting out is complete garbage...there is no chance of its privatization for numerous reasons:

• the Sunshine Coast is one of the larger populated regions BC Ferries serves, and this ferry (as well as the Powell River-Comox route, which is scheduled for potential privatization) is a lifeline for the Sunshine Coast. You think the public complained when they tried to privatize the Mill Bay route, you should wait until you see the protest on this...,
  
• the route is profitable and
  
• the Pacificats will never be accepted into such an essential route.
  

I will get to the details about the bridges you brought up once again in a minute in my next post.

[Doug]

Like they say, anything is possible. I am a believer of that. But they never mention in the common quote that it will last forever. You are right, there is a large earthquake that could happen anytime...it will likely happen in our lifetime and it may not be pretty, unfortunately. Pretty much all of the bridge/tunnel proposals to the Island would be severely vulnerable to such an earthquake. All but the submerged floating tunnel would be ripped to shreds, and this tunnel would still receive damage, I'm sure. If a section is ripped out of the tunnel, thousands could be killed and the tunnel would sink, tragically ending a multi-billion dollar project with thousands of lives.

Fixed bridges have never been proven in the water depths of the Strait of Georgia let alone the even deeper soft sediments. Now let me tell you; this would not only be a super-long bridge...this may very well be the largest construction project of any type in the history of mankind. The cable-stayed towers would be higher than the CN tower, and the footings...well, they would simply sink in the soft sediments, not tragically, but sadly ending a bridge to the Island. You think the buildings in Vancouver are high...the towers would exceed the height of the highest building in Vancouver by four to five times and they would be solid steel, VERY expensive. Keep in mind that, because of the super-long bridge span, this bridge may end up very similar to the Tacoma Narrows, or "Galloping Gurdle"...I'm sure Dan can fill you in on what happened there. To wrap this up, the bottom line is this: the suspension bridge is not feasible.

The bored tunnel would have it worst off in an earthquake. The most comparable figure to a bored tunnel here is the Eurotunnel (or Chunnel) that crosses from France near Calais to England near Dover. It apparently took 11 years to build. How deep must you go below the Strait of Georgia? At least 700 meters, and due to this depth, the tunnel may be even longer than the Eurotunnel, which is 50 km long. Not only does the tunnel have to withstand an earthquake, but the heavy pressure from above. Just imagine, driving (or taking a train) below 300 meters of water and 400 meters of muddy sediment...not something I'd like to do.

A floating bridge is vulnerable to heavy seas, and two have sunk in the world. With such a long span, a floating bridge to the Island would be very at-risk for sinking in heavy seas. If it is rough enough, cars may even get sweeped off the deck.

The submerged floating tunnel, I feel, is the only viable project that could cross to the Island. However, no submerged floating bridges exist in the world today. The pontoons would have to be proven to withstand a freighter crash. Such a tunnel, once in place, will not have room for expansion as it is submerged and they will be forced to build a second tunnel at the same (or more) cost as the first. Like mentioned before, a break in the tunnel would be catastrophic.

You may ask: what are the financial figures of this project? The fixed and floating bridges would be a fortune, $8 billion for a two-lane project and $12 billion for a four lane. Did you think that was a lot? The bored tunnel (Eurotunnel) costed $15 billion USD (1994) and is a train-only tunnel. One running to the Island would be a great deal more. The submerged floating tunnel, however, may cost two-three times as much as the bridges, so could probably be anywhere from $16-$30 billion. Who is going to pay for this? Who else: BC taxpayers. The project would not be constructed by the federal government, it would be a provincial project. How much to cross the bridge? A minimum of $180 for one car, one-way and a maximum of $800. After all this bridge doesn't look like such a good idea after all, does it?

Then we have to look at the public and businesses affected by the bridge. There are two proposed routes; one from Steveston (a historical town that would end up being demolished) in Richmond to Valdes Island and then connecting to both Thetis and Kuper Islands to Vancouver Island. The second route would involve wiping Tsawwassen Terminal off its island and running to Galiano Island, Saltspring Island and then Vancouver Island at Duncan. Would the Gulf Islanders approve of this? Would the Vancouver Islanders approve of this? In the end, both the Gulf Islands and Vancouver Island would end up like the Fraser Valley. Chinese and east Indians would flock to the once peaceful islands. Taxes and the real estate market would sky-rocket...Vancouver Island would no longer be considered an "island".

So what do you think about the bridge idea now? All the above mentioned is factual. The last paragraph is predicted, but very likely as the Fraser Valley is limited on space.... Let's not ruin the South Cost trying to design and build a bridge that wouldn't last.

[Low Light Mike]

Thanks for the picture of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, Doug........that's one of my favourite engineering disaster stories.

Here's something you wrote: "In the end, both the Gulf Islands and Vancouver Island would end up like the Fraser Valley. Chinese and east Indians would flock to the once peaceful islands. Taxes and the real estate market would sky-rocket...Vancouver Island would no longer be considered an "island"."

Please elaborate, on the cause & effect. Taxes and real estate would sky rocket because.........what? Immigration of new Chinese & Indians to BC?, or migration of existing Chinese & Indians to Vancouver Island? Is that what's happened in the Fraser Valley? I think we already have a lot of asian-wealth on Vancouver Island. We also have European-wealth, just ask anyone in Tofino. We have Toronto-wealth already on SaltSpring.

I agree that migration of different cultures into a new area can have a "takeover" effect, if that new culture is insensitive to the existing culture. You see that in Ganges (SSI, not India) where the Cadillac SUV now outnumbers the VW-van. Toronto people are downsizing and moving to SaltSpring.....but the effect is that SaltSpring is being up-sized.

Also: Would the fixed-link-bridge be one gigantic street-race course with Porshce Boxsters running into pedestrians?