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Post by Kahloke on Aug 9, 2016 8:29:33 GMT -8
Could the easiest solution be replacing the Alberni with a bigger vessel? With what? As Neil said, there's nothing available now, or are you talking about future new-builds? When they start replacing the C's, perhaps something bigger can replace Alberni. Until then, what we have is what we have.
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Post by bigcountry on Aug 9, 2016 11:51:24 GMT -8
Could the easiest solution be replacing the Alberni with a bigger vessel? With what? As Neil said, there's nothing available now, or are you talking about future new-builds? When they start replacing the C's, perhaps something bigger can replace Alberni. Until then, what we have is what we have. I was thinking either 1) a new build to replace the Alberni, Or 2) a reshuffle that would send the Rennie to Route 30, the Cowichan back to being the primary Route 2 vessel based out of Departure Bay, the Coquitlam to being the 3rd vessel on Route 3 and the Alberni to being the secondary boat on Route 3 And yes I know Sunshine Coasters would be thrilled with option 2
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 9, 2016 16:47:30 GMT -8
With what? As Neil said, there's nothing available now, or are you talking about future new-builds? When they start replacing the C's, perhaps something bigger can replace Alberni. Until then, what we have is what we have. I was thinking either 1) a new build to replace the Alberni, Or 2) a reshuffle that would send the Rennie to Route 30, the Cowichan back to being the primary Route 2 vessel based out of Departure Bay, the Coquitlam to being the 3rd vessel on Route 3 and the Alberni to being the secondary boat on Route 3 And yes I know Sunshine Coasters would be thrilled with option 2 1) The Queen of Alberni was refurbish almost ten years ago. She is a least good for another 30 years. 2) Coastal Renaissance needs to stay on route 2 permanently even in the winter. So, I do not see route 30 getting a bigger vessel in the near future.
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Post by Mike C on Aug 9, 2016 17:02:38 GMT -8
I was thinking either 1) a new build to replace the Alberni, Or 2) a reshuffle that would send the Rennie to Route 30, the Cowichan back to being the primary Route 2 vessel based out of Departure Bay, the Coquitlam to being the 3rd vessel on Route 3 and the Alberni to being the secondary boat on Route 3 And yes I know Sunshine Coasters would be thrilled with option 2 1) The Queen of Alberni was refurbish almost ten years ago. She is a least good for another 30 years. A 70 year old Queen of Alberni. Do you understand the mechanical undertaking and engineering feasibility required to keep this vessel in op--... ...you know what, never mind. Hope to see you all on the retirement cruise in 2046!
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 9, 2016 17:39:37 GMT -8
1) The Queen of Alberni was refurbish almost ten years ago. She is a least good for another 30 years. A 70 year old Queen of Alberni. Do you understand the mechanical undertaking and engineering feasibility required to keep this vessel in op--... ...you know what, never mind. Hope to see you all on the retirement cruise in 2046! But she got lifted in 1984 which could allow her to sail for addition than the original C-Class.
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Post by bigcountry on Aug 9, 2016 18:12:45 GMT -8
A 70 year old Queen of Alberni. Do you understand the mechanical undertaking and engineering feasibility required to keep this vessel in op--... ...you know what, never mind. Hope to see you all on the retirement cruise in 2046! But she got left in 1984 which could allow her to sail for addition than the original C-Class. yet she breaks down more than any C-Class vessel I'm not saying there's an ideal situation however the Cowichan/Coquitlam's capacity is just 8 cars fewer than the Rennaisance
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 9, 2016 18:28:51 GMT -8
But she got left in 1984 which could allow her to sail for addition than the original C-Class. I'm not saying there's an ideal situation however the Cowichan/Coquitlam's capacity is just 8 cars fewer than the Renaissance But that 8 cars more on route 2 during the sailing waits for under height vehicles on that route which their is way more of through out the summer. Route 30 does not have sailings waits for under height vehicles on that many days though out the summer.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 9, 2016 19:11:09 GMT -8
A 70 year old Queen of Alberni. Do you understand the mechanical undertaking and engineering feasibility required to keep this vessel in op--... ...you know what, never mind. Hope to see you all on the retirement cruise in 2046! But she got left in 1984 which could allow her to sail for addition than the original C-Class. On the topic of celebrity divorces in the year 1984, we have Margaret Trudeau being divorced from Pierre Trudeau. Yes, she got left in 1984. ---------------- In the 1984 election in Luxembourg, a socialist coalition won victory. - So she (Luxembourg) also got left in 1984.
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Post by Dane on Aug 9, 2016 20:13:55 GMT -8
The real life lift capacity of a Coastal is a lot more than a Retro-C. I don't base this on any published information, but since the terminals have added the counter thingies I've been watching what the actual lifts are. It makes sense given the open car deck layout as opposed to the two centre sill layout of the older Cs with the gallery decks on four that bring a lot of inefficiency.
Personally I think given the odd-ball mix of the fleet, an operating norm for BC Ferries, the fleet allocation is okay. Given the unrealistic nature of thinking any major vessel purchases will happen soon I think the only tangible change I could see if capacity continues to lag behind peak demand would be platform decks brought back to some ships / added to the Coastals. Off season deployments could also potentially change to see the Spirits sail full time year round; there were a lot of one sailing waits early this year when one or both Spirits were tied up.
At the end of the day we have just finished the peak travel season of the year. Delays and extreme waits happen every year. A 7% increase in traffic doesn't take demand back to what it once was. This makes me believe change won't happen. And, the fact the Queen of New Westminster was so substantially upgraded a little less than a decade ago speaks to the Province's willingness to be penny-wise pound-poor in capital investments for ferries.
That said, I do really believe if the fleet had one additional major vessel it would be a strong overall positive without adding too much unneeded capacity. With refits and the constant of the unexpected it seems like in the off season there's always a situation where having one more ship would have saved the day.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 10, 2016 4:03:51 GMT -8
I will chime in on this capacity discussion with my 'Rio' solution ...
BC Ferries needs to properly 'stack' the (car) decks. They could get 20 or 25 additional vehicles (maybe more?) on each sailing. That could be like having a fifth ship carrying 100 cars on route 1. I was on both Spirits last weekend and I had a good look at car spacing that was occurring by letting drivers use "their own judgement". I took some photos ...
In the past they truly did stack the decks. In the 1990's route one had up to 20 sailings daily (2 Spirits & 3 V's).
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Post by gordon on Aug 10, 2016 8:19:26 GMT -8
can the terminal staff who load the ferries not make sure that the vehicle space is maximiized
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 10, 2016 9:01:11 GMT -8
I will chime in on this capacity discussion with my 'Rio' solution ... BC Ferries needs to properly 'stack' the (car) decks. They could get 20 or 25 additional vehicles (maybe more?) on each sailing. That could be like having a fifth ship carrying 100 cars on route 1. I was on both Spirits last weekend and I had a good look at car spacing that was occurring by letting drivers use "their own judgement". I took some photos ... In the past they truly did stack the decks. In the 1990's route one had up to 20 sailings daily (2 Spirits & 3 V's). Someone noted before that BCFerries doesn't have the deckhands park the car tight like they used to because your OSHA/L&I equivalent (Worksafe BC?) doesn't want the personnel in a confined space with moving vehicles. I understand the concern, but can't believe that the only solution is to just let the cars park themselves.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 10, 2016 10:15:00 GMT -8
I will chime in on this capacity discussion with my 'Rio' solution ... BC Ferries needs to properly 'stack' the (car) decks. They could get 20 or 25 additional vehicles (maybe more?) on each sailing. That could be like having a fifth ship carrying 100 cars on route 1. I was on both Spirits last weekend and I had a good look at car spacing that was occurring by letting drivers use "their own judgement". I took some photos ... In the past they truly did stack the decks. In the 1990's route one had up to 20 sailings daily (2 Spirits & 3 V's). Someone noted before that BCFerries doesn't have the deckhands park the car tight like they used to because your OSHA/L&I equivalent (Worksafe BC?) doesn't want the personnel in a confined space with moving vehicles. I understand the concern, but can't believe that the only solution is to just let the cars park themselves. That's not the case. On the Queen of Alberni, crewmen unload adjacent lanes by directing alternating vehicles from each, because the lanes are too narrow to unload otherwise. There's obviously no regulations keeping them from being in confined spaces with moving vehicles. WettCoast is right- there's a tremendous amount of wasted space on the cardecks of the major vessels, because there aren't enough crew allocated to bring everyone up tight behind the vehicle in front.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 10, 2016 11:44:08 GMT -8
Someone noted before that BCFerries doesn't have the deckhands park the car tight like they used to because your OSHA/L&I equivalent (Worksafe BC?) doesn't want the personnel in a confined space with moving vehicles. I understand the concern, but can't believe that the only solution is to just let the cars park themselves. That's not the case. On the Queen of Alberni, crewmen unload adjacent lanes by directing alternating vehicles from each, because the lanes are too narrow to unload otherwise. There's obviously no regulations keeping them from being in confined spaces with moving vehicles. WettCoast is right- there's a tremendous amount of wasted space on the cardecks of the major vessels, because there aren't enough crew allocated to bring everyone up tight behind the vehicle in front. Neil I was remembering this post ferriesbc.proboards.com/post/135478/threadwhich, at the time wasn't exactly refuted in the thread. If its an inaccurate statement by that former member (whose background was unclear), fine. But it stood out in my mind.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 10, 2016 12:05:12 GMT -8
That's not the case. On the Queen of Alberni, crewmen unload adjacent lanes by directing alternating vehicles from each, because the lanes are too narrow to unload otherwise. There's obviously no regulations keeping them from being in confined spaces with moving vehicles. WettCoast is right- there's a tremendous amount of wasted space on the cardecks of the major vessels, because there aren't enough crew allocated to bring everyone up tight behind the vehicle in front. Neil I was remembering this post ferriesbc.proboards.com/post/135478/threadwhich, at the time wasn't exactly refuted in the thread. If its an inaccurate statement by that former member (whose background was unclear), fine. But it stood out in my mind. No idea who deleted member 'jervis' was. But again, with the ' Alberni... you have crewmen making their way down two lanes, gesturing go or stop to alternating vehicles. It's always seemed vaguely dangerous to me, but it's the only way to unload the vessel without doors and mirrors getting clipped. Crew do direct vehicles parking toward the stern, to pack more in. So, clearly, the wasted space is a result of manpower, not regulations. On the smaller vessels with a higher crew to vehicle ratio, there is no such wasted space.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 18:22:23 GMT -8
There are a few sides to this discussion.... The turn around time when ferries are busy puts big time pressure on the crew to load and leave. The boats seem to be getting bigger but the car deck crew is spread thin and can't deal with every vehicle. Vehicle drivers who have been waiting aren't always thinking about those that haven't made it aboard yet. In my experience, some drivers do whatever they want to and don't follow directions .... it's a trade-off ....get into a time consuming discussion or do the best you can to pack vehicles around them. The two lane alternating works very well and gives the DH a safety zone to avoid being run over or clipped by a mirror. Another beef that I have is that since the inmates took over the asylum, they have been ego-building vessels of every size and description and building ( re-fitting !!!) them as far away from BC as possible. Each class of vessel requires that the crew be familiarized and "cleared" which requires a huge amount of time and money. Imagine what it must be like for relief crews to become comfortable working with different crews and vessels. I have advocated for years that BCF should have built as many more of the Alberni Class as they need for spares or replacement and they could be utilized on any of the major routes without the extreme costs of new berths and clearing crews as well as burning less fuel. The powers that be seem to keep dreaming about a "cruise experience" while the people that pay for them would probably prefer an efficient and less costly alternative. As a former employee, I know that the crews do their best to make everything work well but it just doesn't always happen.
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Post by arrrrmatey on Aug 11, 2016 12:10:14 GMT -8
As a life-long passenger and regular traveler on most major routes, I have a few possible ideas on the problem of the lack of major vessels in the summer. Tell me what your think:
#1: Move the Coquitlam from Route 3 to Route 2, the Ren to route 1 to be the #2 vessel on Route 1. The New West would be an extra Tsawassen-based ship that could do 2-4 round trips per day, split between Route 30 and Route 1 as required. Running either 2 or 4 round trips per day would eliminate any half-shifts for the crew. With the arrival of the salish class next summer, I am not sure what the vessel requirements for route 9 would be like, (i.e. will one of them be home-ported in Tsawassen?), meaning that berth usage at Tsawassen could be tricky.
For Route 3, I have noticed the past few summers that having 2 C's on this route, while nice as a passenger, is a bit of overkill. This route, even on a busy friday/sunday, rarely has more than a 1 sailing wait (if that) while both vessels are sailing, whereas all other major routes have 2+ sailing waits and sometimes even sell out for vehicle space. I would recommend using a vessel like the island sky/cumberland/capilano as the #2, and run it for the whole day (at least on friday/sunday) instead of only 3 or 4 round trips. This would only slightly reduce the capacity on this route, which shouldn't be an issue. This vessel could use the other berth at Langdale and avoid having the Coquitlam be re-positioned at the start/end of its day.
As for which of the Island Sky/Cumberland/Capilano or alternatives could be moved to Route 3 for the summer: -Build a 4th of this class (cheaper than building a new major vessel) -Build a 4th Salish class (again, cheaper than building another major vessel) -I have never been to the Gulf Islands, and know nothing of how things work there. With the arrival of the Salish class, the Bowen Queen would be freed up and possibly shuffles could be made? Perhaps some of you could offer ideas here. -As a former resident and regular visitor of Powell River, I would reccomend using taking the Island Sky ONLY if suitable replacement(s) could be made. While I have always been a fan of using 2 smaller vessels on Earls/Saltery (thus having hourly (approximately) sailings), it would have to planned much better than the fiasco that occurred when the Burnaby went out of service for a week a few weeks ago. Perhaps the Bowen and the Quinitsa would be suitable - their combined capacity is similar to the Island Sky - or the Bowen and Mayne Queens (again, I'm not familiar with how this would affect the Gulf Islands) -If the Capilano is chosen, perhaps the Bowen/Quinitsa combo could be effective there (and yet again, I'm not familiar with Bowen Island and how this would affect them).
#2: The Province/Federal Gov't comes through on the possibility of pushing a road to the Sunshine Coast around Howe Sound, instead of BCF and/or the government funding newbuilds. This would eliminate Route 3 and free up the Surrey and Coquitlam permanently.
Route 2 could then have 4 C class (Oak Bay, Surrey, Coq, Cowichan) or 3 C's and 1 spare. Route 2 could certainly benefit from an extra vessel in the summer, and the removal of Route 3 would help with the berth congestion issues at Horseshoe Bay.
The Renaissance would replace the New West as the #2 Tsawassen-based vessel on route 1, which would increase capacity there, and the New West could be an extra for Routes 1 & 30 until she is retired. This is assuming that if the Ren replaced the Alberni on route 30, that the Alberni would not be a suitable extra for both Routes 1 & 30 due to active pass.
Another alternative to this plan is keep the Ren on Route 2 and move the Coquitlam to Tsawassen (did she not used to run on route 1 in the summers? A Tsawassen employee told me she was a 5th vessel on that route in the.... 80's? 90's? I don't remember.) though I think moving the Ren is the better option due to over height capacity.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 11, 2016 18:06:09 GMT -8
There are a few sides to this discussion.... The turn around time when ferries are busy puts big time pressure on the crew to load and leave. The boats seem to be getting bigger but the car deck crew is spread thin and can't deal with every vehicle. Vehicle drivers who have been waiting aren't always thinking about those that haven't made it aboard yet. In my experience, some drivers do whatever they want to and don't follow directions .... it's a trade-off ....get into a time consuming discussion or do the best you can to pack vehicles around them. The two lane alternating works very well and gives the DH a safety zone to avoid being run over or clipped by a mirror. Another beef that I have is that since the inmates took over the asylum, they have been ego-building vessels of every size and description and building ( re-fitting !!!) them as far away from BC as possible. Each class of vessel requires that the crew be familiarized and "cleared" which requires a huge amount of time and money. Imagine what it must be like for relief crews to become comfortable working with different crews and vessels. I have advocated for years that BCF should have built as many more of the Alberni Class as they need for spares or replacement and they could be utilized on any of the major routes without the extreme costs of new berths and clearing crews as well as burning less fuel. The powers that be seem to keep dreaming about a "cruise experience" while the people that pay for them would probably prefer an efficient and less costly alternative. As a former employee, I know that the crews do their best to make everything work well but it just doesn't always happen. Do you happen to know if there are actually fewer deckhands assigned to vehicle loading these days? Seems to me that there used to be someone making sure all the lanes were parked up tight, but maybe my memory is faulty.
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Post by Dane on Aug 11, 2016 20:14:03 GMT -8
This is strictly opinion - but BC Ferries (regardless of public / private) seems to go through phases of either emphasizing close to on-time performance, or loading boats full and just giving up on timeliness. Right now, it seems that different routes are in different phases of this cycle.
Regularly on Route 1 I see open space and unfamiliar (or, in some cases, jerk) drivers that have taken up too much space somehow. Regularly on Route 2 I have been edged to within a very, very close distance of the car in front of me. Both of these observations have been pretty consistent this year having driven onto Route 1 about 20 times, and 10 for Route 2 - almost always busy times. I have sailed several more times as a footie, and again those observations seem to hold true of my car deck wonderings.
I have taken Route 3 a few hundred times, but only driven on twice. Given the on-time performance in the summer I would hope that they're stacking those cars pretty darn close!!
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 11, 2016 21:29:16 GMT -8
This is strictly opinion - but BC Ferries (regardless of public / private) seems to go through phases of either emphasizing close to on-time performance, or loading boats full and just giving up on timeliness. Right now, it seems that different routes are in different phases of this cycle. Regularly on Route 1 I see open space and unfamiliar (or, in some cases, jerk) drivers that have taken up too much space somehow. Regularly on Route 2 I have been edged to within a very, very close distance of the car in front of me. Both of these observations have been pretty consistent this year having driven onto Route 1 about 20 times, and 10 for Route 2 - almost always busy times. I have sailed several more times as a footie, and again those observations seem to hold true of my car deck wonderings. I have taken Route 3 a few hundred times, but only driven on twice. Given the on-time performance in the summer I would hope that they're stacking those cars pretty darn close!! The ' Alberni on route 30 is my usual commute. Unless you're near the stern, there's no one urging you to 'park close' as the sign says. Far too much wasted space, exacerbating the poor design of a supposed vehicular oriented vessel. Sometimes I see someone who's drawn up about five feet short of the car in front and I want to ask them if their car is so precious that they need the safety zone, but I've not wanted to look like some compulsive/obsessive type, so I haven't.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 11, 2016 22:04:58 GMT -8
The ' Alberni on route 30 is my usual commute. Unless you're near the stern, there's no one urging you to 'park close' as the sign says. Far too much wasted space, exacerbating the poor design of a supposed vehicular oriented vessel. Sometimes I see someone who's drawn up about five feet short of the car in front and I want to ask them if their car is so precious that they need the safety zone, but I've not wanted to look like some compulsive/obsessive type, so I haven't. Generalization here but far too many people have no concept of how large their vehicle is and how much space is left in front and to the sides when they park it or stop it. This is very easy to note on a multilane arterial when you come to a redlight and are the last vehicle across the lanes to come to a full stop in the first position (up against the cross walk / stop bar). If you pull right up to the line, you may be as much as a full car length in front of the other vehicles. These people that can't figure it out in their daily driving don't suddenly become more skilled when they drive on a ferry.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 12, 2016 11:26:07 GMT -8
As of 12:25 pm, overheight vehicles arriving at Tsawwassen bound for Duke Point are getting on the 8:15 sailing. Insane. Hopefully this is a mistake on their notices page.
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Post by Dane on Aug 12, 2016 11:44:48 GMT -8
I do think some of these sailing waits are somewhat "exaggerated" in that such a huge amount of deck space is being reserved that basically if you show up mid-day, on a busy day, the ferry is full regardless of what the actual drive up traffic conditions are. This isn't of any comfort if you're at Tsawwassen for eight hours, of course (although that's an avoidable problem).
If you look at the Route 30 traffic at Tsawwassen there's actually almost no one there despite a 2 / 3 sailing wait.
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Post by gordon on Aug 12, 2016 12:21:46 GMT -8
You don't get the traffic congestion on route 30 for a 3 sail wait most likely because there are 2 1\2 hours between sailings giving most the traffic from each sailing to clear.
What percentage of each sailing is reserved?
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Post by Dane on Sept 5, 2016 13:20:14 GMT -8
The summer of unpredictable loads comes to an end, unpredictably. There's a one sail wait on most of the major routes, but nothing crazy. Highways in Metro Vancouver and the CRD seem to be very, very busy.
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