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Post by Dane on Dec 16, 2017 14:17:41 GMT -8
Having just seen Scott's photo's taken in Victoria. Perhaps someone can remind me as to why they spent good money having this $50,000,000.00 thing repainted in Greece! Where did that number come from?! |
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Post by mybidness459 on Dec 16, 2017 15:05:19 GMT -8
From Scott's photos, I'd say that this is a vessel where despite her relatively young age, seventeen, rust really has set in in a number of areas, and will be an ongoing maintenance issue. The former Mr Shoppy One and Aqua Spirit clearly did not have the diligent care bestowed on, say, the Coho. Those added rubblng strakes that look like dark eyebrows... is that the first BC Ferries vessel we've ever seen those on? Seems to me every other boat has had the conventional overhangs of the car deck. I like the look, it adds to the vessel, like the anchor on the Queen of The North. I am glad the ship made it😉. |
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transit
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by transit on Dec 18, 2017 1:34:16 GMT -8
From Scott's photos, I'd say that this is a vessel where despite her relatively young age, seventeen, rust really has set in in a number of areas, and will be an ongoing maintenance issue. The former Mr Shoppy One and Aqua Spirit clearly did not have the diligent care bestowed on, say, the Coho. Those added rubblng strakes that look like dark eyebrows... is that the first BC Ferries vessel we've ever seen those on? Seems to me every other boat has had the conventional overhangs of the car deck. Well, they went and bought a Greek ship. The Greek are, I'm sorry to say, notoriously known for poor seamanship and shipbuilding. If that wasn't enough, they've ruined numerous ships from the rest of world by rebuilding them with their trademark, over-the-top clipper-like ship bows. I truly can't believe that this vessel was the best BC Ferries could find in today's market - there's a brimful of fine vessels from all across Europe. I'm afraid this speaks volumes about BC Ferries' technical department. |
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Post by mybidness459 on Dec 18, 2017 17:32:32 GMT -8
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Post by physicist on Dec 18, 2017 19:47:48 GMT -8
Having just seen Scott's photo's taken in Victoria. Perhaps someone can remind me as to why they spent good money having this $50,000,000.00 thing repainted in Greece! Further to that, has anyone else noticed just how sloppy and poor the painting of the BC Ferries lettering is on the side? It looks very unprofessional. Even the white lines on the funnel are poorly done. |
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Nick
Voyager 
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
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Post by Nick on Dec 19, 2017 14:49:50 GMT -8
Having just seen Scott's photo's taken in Victoria. Perhaps someone can remind me as to why they spent good money having this $50,000,000.00 thing repainted in Greece! Further to that, has anyone else noticed just how sloppy and poor the painting of the BC Ferries lettering is on the side? It looks very unprofessional. Even the white lines on the funnel are poorly done. Looks like it doesn't matter. BCF probably just wanted to get their branding on the ship for the transit... this is often part of the deal when buying a used ship. The seller does not want their livery on a ship they no longer operate. As seen today on Twitter/Facebook, BCF is commissioning a native artist to create a custom design for the NSW. I'm guessing it'll be another wrap like the Salish class. |
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Post by yvr on Dec 19, 2017 16:48:33 GMT -8
Putting the brand on the ship! - why - no one that mattered would ever see it. Back in October I mentioned they could have easily painted out the Sea Jets name and logo with a few gallons of paint and a roller. There was absolutely no need for a low quality Greek paint job on this vessel, especially since the Greeks did such a poor job. It would be interesting to know who the BC Ferries rep was who over saw the Greek dry docking and livery change and signed off on this work. It's a wonder senior mgmt at BCF haven't reprimanded him.
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transit
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by transit on Dec 19, 2017 18:33:35 GMT -8
It's a Greek paint job. A perfect way of highlighting Greek shipbuilding "art".
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Dec 19, 2017 19:22:06 GMT -8
Greece is a country with an extensive system of ferry routes. Many of the vessels are built there. I also commented on the state of the Northern Sea Wolf's bow, and the general rust, but does anyone actually have any evidence of shoddy shipbuilding practices in that country, or is this just idle griping? Seems that there are some people who have a bit of a hate on for this new addition to the fleet.
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 19, 2017 20:23:43 GMT -8
Greece is a country with an extensive system of ferry routes. Many of the vessels are built there. I also commented on the state of the Northern Sea Wolf's bow, and the general rust, but does anyone actually have any evidence of shoddy shipbuilding practices in that country, or is this just idle griping? Seems that there are some people who have a bit of a hate on for this new addition to the fleet. Neil, do you remember the commentary regarding the Northern Adventure in the first year or so after it went into service in 2007. There was a lot of negative commentary, including some of the same judgment re Greek ship building. I think a good portion of the negative commentary both then & now was/is justified, though I'm not sure about blanket comments on Greek ship building. So what in my mind is wrong with the NSW ... - Well there is that chosen name that sounds like something you might give to a child's bath tub toy ... - This vessel seems to be no better suited to the intended route than either of it predecessors ... - Lack of cabin windows (bit like the NorAd in that regard) ... - The vessel is too small, at least for summer service ... - Single car deck door (again, just like the NorAd) - I have thought about what other route BC Ferries might use this vessel on and I don't think that there is one ... Another irritating thing about this whole venture (though not a criticism of the vessel itself) is the charade from BC Ferries that this is a NEW service (even with a New route number). This is nothing more than a fix it job on a government bungle ... Of the three vessels that have served or will serve on BC's central coast, the Wack remains the best of the lot. Faint praise, I know ...
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,080
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Post by Nick on Dec 19, 2017 21:39:01 GMT -8
Greece is a country with an extensive system of ferry routes. Many of the vessels are built there. I also commented on the state of the Northern Sea Wolf's bow, and the general rust, but does anyone actually have any evidence of shoddy shipbuilding practices in that country, or is this just idle griping? Seems that there are some people who have a bit of a hate on for this new addition to the fleet. Neil, do you remember the commentary regarding the Northern Adventure in the first year or so after it went into service in 2007. There was a lot of negative commentary, including some of the same judgment re Greek ship building. I think a good portion of the negative commentary both then & now was/is justified, though I'm not sure about blanket comments on Greek ship building. So what in my mind is wrong with the NSW ... - Well there is that chosen name that sounds like something you might give to a child's bath tub toy ... - This vessel seems to be no better suited to the intended route than either of it predecessors ... - Lack of cabin windows (bit like the NorAd in that regard) ... - The vessel is too small, at least for summer service ... - Single car deck door (again, just like the NorAd) - I have thought about what other route BC Ferries might use this vessel on and I don't think that there is one ... Another irritating thing about this whole venture (though not a criticism of the vessel itself) is the charade from BC Ferries that this is a NEW service (even with a New route number). This is nothing more than a fix it job on a government bungle ... Of the three vessels that have served or will serve on BC's central coast, the Wack remains the best of the lot. Faint praise, I know ...
OK I think this is getting a bit ridiculous. It's a cheap paint job, done no doubt as a "good enough" slap job, since the ship was out of the water anyway for a buyers inspection. In Canada it would probably cost less than $10k, no doubt it would be less in Greece. Peanuts, in the scheme of things. WCK, I will agree that the charade of "new service" is nauseating. However, that ship has sailed and at least the cut service is returning. As far as the name, we will have to agree to disagree. I kinda like it, especially if the artwork on the side ends up helping to tell the story. The single car deck door is not really a problem. The NorAd manages just fine, and eliminating a bow door eliminates a lot of maintenance and inspection cost. Having a door in the watertight portion of the hull is a major weak point in the ship structure and the maintenance and surveys take this into account. Does it matter if there's another route this boat can be used on, if it's intended to be used on the North coast year round? Also, I'm pretty sure it would be capable of handling the inside passage during the low season, so it may end up being used as a refit replacement for the NorEx. I've definitely seen the NorEx load up in Hardy with less than 35 cars. I think we should wait and see what she looks like after the refit before we criticize the ship too much. We don't know what BCF has planned for changing the passenger spaces around. Regarding Greek shipbuilding, there is a general reputation in the industry that it's not the best, similar to how the typical North American considers many Chinese goods. That said, the nature of the shipping industry in the Mediterranean and the fact that a lot of it is Greek, means there is a large supply of used passenger vessels there. |
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 20, 2017 10:49:25 GMT -8
Greece is a country with an extensive system of ferry routes. Many of the vessels are built there. I also commented on the state of the Northern Sea Wolf's bow, and the general rust, but does anyone actually have any evidence of shoddy shipbuilding practices in that country, or is this just idle griping? Seems that there are some people who have a bit of a hate on for this new addition to the fleet. Neil, do you remember the commentary regarding the Northern Adventure in the first year or so after it went into service in 2007. There was a lot of negative commentary, including some of the same judgment re Greek ship building. I think a good portion of the negative commentary both then & now was/is justified, though I'm not sure about blanket comments on Greek ship building. So what in my mind is wrong with the NSW ... - Well there is that chosen name that sounds like something you might give to a child's bath tub toy ... - This vessel seems to be no better suited to the intended route than either of it predecessors ... - Lack of cabin windows (bit like the NorAd in that regard) ... - The vessel is too small, at least for summer service ... - Single car deck door (again, just like the NorAd) - I have thought about what other route BC Ferries might use this vessel on and I don't think that there is one ... Another irritating thing about this whole venture (though not a criticism of the vessel itself) is the charade from BC Ferries that this is a NEW service (even with a New route number). This is nothing more than a fix it job on a government bungle ... Of the three vessels that have served or will serve on BC's central coast, the Wack remains the best of the lot. Faint praise, I know ...
I like the name. It has a basis in first nations' lore, and hopefully that will be explained on onboard graphics. The lack of windows is a real problem, and I doubt they'll improve that. The main problem with the ship is that it will be too small. If the purchase had been made under the Horgan government, I think you would have seen a little more foresight. |
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transit
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by transit on Dec 20, 2017 18:55:23 GMT -8
Greece is a country with an extensive system of ferry routes. Many of the vessels are built there. I also commented on the state of the Northern Sea Wolf's bow, and the general rust, but does anyone actually have any evidence of shoddy shipbuilding practices in that country, or is this just idle griping? Seems that there are some people who have a bit of a hate on for this new addition to the fleet. I wouldn't call it hate - there is a certain potential in the Northern Sea Wolf, it's up to BC Ferries how it turns out in the end. However, the Greek extensive ferry system is not a proof of quality for neither shipbuilding nor seamanship; they dock with their non-drive-thru ships aft-in at these tiny quays, as shown in many "impressive" Youtube videos. When docked, the passengers have to drive aboard at 60 mph before the next wave washes over the dock and drowns them all. Very safe! I've also heard stories of ships breaking their moorings, causing passengers to fall into the sea and drown. Their shipbuilding is run by the same priciples, constructing cheap, poorly built vessels out of rusty, cheap steel, and with primitive means of propulsion. I won't bother you with more tiresome Greek bashing. The ship is bought and brought, so let's hope BC Ferries succeeds in making the most of it. |
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Neil
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Posts: 7,317
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Post by Neil on Dec 20, 2017 21:02:58 GMT -8
Greece is a country with an extensive system of ferry routes. Many of the vessels are built there. I also commented on the state of the Northern Sea Wolf's bow, and the general rust, but does anyone actually have any evidence of shoddy shipbuilding practices in that country, or is this just idle griping? Seems that there are some people who have a bit of a hate on for this new addition to the fleet. I wouldn't call it hate - there is a certain potential in the Northern Sea Wolf, it's up to BC Ferries how it turns out in the end. However, the Greek extensive ferry system is not a proof of quality for neither shipbuilding nor seamanship; they dock with their non-drive-thru ships aft-in at these tiny quays, as shown in many "impressive" Youtube videos. When docked, the passengers have to drive aboard at 60 mph before the next wave washes over the dock and drowns them all. Very safe! I've also heard stories of ships breaking their moorings, causing passengers to fall into the sea and drown. Their shipbuilding is run by the same priciples, constructing cheap, poorly built vessels out of rusty, cheap steel, and with primitive means of propulsion. I won't bother you with more tiresome Greek bashing. The ship is bought and brought, so let's hope BC Ferries succeeds in making the most of it. I don't go by youtube videos. I saw one a while back that showed a New Zealand ferry plunging in and out of waves like some ride 'em bull in an '80s bar. That didn't convince me that New Zealand has lax sailing weather restrictions, but rather that people post videos of exceptional stuff. Nobody's driving onto a Greek ferry at 60mph. 99.9% of loadings are probably pretty unexceptional, and while the fact that Greece is a much poorer country than ours with a very extensive network of ferry connections means that there is probably going to be a lower standard of safety enforcement, their record is not egregious. Also, it might be worth noting that Greece has a thirty year age limit on its ferries, whereas here in super-advanced BC and Washington the age limit is determined partly by the number of patches that operators are willing to put on rusty hulls. |
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Post by dofd on Dec 21, 2017 0:31:50 GMT -8
From Scott's photos, I'd say that this is a vessel where despite her relatively young age, seventeen, rust really has set in in a number of areas, and will be an ongoing maintenance issue. The former Mr Shoppy One and Aqua Spirit clearly did not have the diligent care bestowed on, say, the Coho. Those added rubblng strakes that look like dark eyebrows... is that the first BC Ferries vessel we've ever seen those on? Seems to me every other boat has had the conventional overhangs of the car deck. Well, they went and bought a Greek ship. The Greek are, I'm sorry to say, notoriously known for poor seamanship and shipbuilding. If that wasn't enough, they've ruined numerous ships from the rest of world by rebuilding them with their trademark, over-the-top clipper-like ship bows. I truly can't believe that this vessel was the best BC Ferries could find in today's market - there's a brimful of fine vessels from all across Europe. I'm afraid this speaks volumes about BC Ferries' technical department. So I have done a loose look online about Greek quality builds. Have found nothing. Where do you get your info? Maybe they only build for Greek companies, so no bad reviews. |
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transit
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by transit on Dec 21, 2017 6:20:01 GMT -8
As a sailor, I base my views on observations. I ususally travel in a relaxed manner, but when entering a Greek ferry on a vacation on Naxos a few years ago, I immediately was alarmed by the state of the vessel and by the manners of the crew. I've been a captain for some time now, and captains don't have to look long to see ships run poorly. Anyway, what I saw made me take a thoroughly look through the vessel to make sure I would find life jackets, muster stations, remote starts of emergency fire pumps etc. All in order to save my family's lives should an accident occur.
This was, on the outside, one of the newer and bigger vessels.
We passed a shipyard in Perama by foot and it was most basic, compared to to both European and American standards. There seemed to be some kind of mass-production of landing-craft double-ended ferries going on, as a long-time crew member on such vessels I was less than impressed. It suddenly made me remember the Danish ferry «Kanhave» which was riddled by all sorts of problems, namely electric, mechanic and vast rust problems because of poorly painted, cheap rusty steel being used to construct the vessel. It cost the ferry operator a fortune, as the Greek shipbuilder was having none of it when faced with demands of refunds from the shipowner.
The «Kanhave» is the only Greek-built ferry plying rough North European waters; not only because of her many costly flaws, but also because the Greek concept didn't work in countries where safety is a top priority. Norwegian shipowners are building ferries, tankers and trawlers in Turkey and Poland(Norwegian designs, it must be said). Never in Greece, and I think that says it all.
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Post by mybidness459 on Jan 6, 2018 13:17:21 GMT -8
Anyone know of if NSW has been registered with the Canadian flag yet? AIS still has her listed as her flag of convenience.
I don't know if they will change it now on AIS or wait until she is ready to go into service.
Thanks
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 6, 2018 13:39:05 GMT -8
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Post by mybidness459 on Jan 6, 2018 14:31:30 GMT -8
Thanx.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,080
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Post by Nick on Jan 6, 2018 20:06:46 GMT -8
Anyone know of if NSW has been registered with the Canadian flag yet? AIS still has her listed as her flag of convenience. I don't know if they will change it now on AIS or wait until she is ready to go into service. Thanks She won't be registered in Canada until she passes all her inspections by Transport Canada. This won't happen until the drydocking is done. |
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Post by mybidness459 on Jan 16, 2018 12:10:29 GMT -8
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transit
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by transit on Jan 16, 2018 17:01:44 GMT -8
They are spending $20 million on her? That's outrageous.
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Post by Starsteward on Jan 17, 2018 9:45:01 GMT -8
WOW! 'Gutted' is using the term mildly! I'll admit 'sums' were not, are not, nor ever will be, my strong suit, BUT: The very basic figures we have gleaned for this wee vessel: Purchase price: $ 12.6 million Esquimalt Dry dock refit: $ 20 million Terminal modifications etc. $ 10 million Ok, now before we all swallow our cocktail swizzle sticks, lets do our sums: $ 42.6 million - (not counting the Greek dry docking and lousy paint job). From the 'gut-out' video, I see no apparent structural changes within the passenger areas that offer better views of the wonderful flora and fauna that BCFS is flogging. Draw your own conclusions folks as to the entire cost of this project versus what 'little Johnny' brought home from the overseas 'boat-store'.  Now what was the final decree uttered at the end of each episode of the 'Apprentice'? My opinion only here, but in this case I would nod my head in agreement.  |
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Post by jwjsamster on Jan 17, 2018 14:01:47 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 17, 2018 14:14:02 GMT -8
Also you forgot to add in the loss that BC Ferries sold the Queen of Chilliwack into your math here... We already had a boat for this route! Well, she was near the end of her regulatory life, and didn't really work well, and even missed her final week of Discovery Coast service being broken down. So we had a boat that didn't work and would keep needing continual Band-Aid dollars to keep it certified in Canada. It's somewhat of an urban legend that the Queen of Chilliwack was a good ship at the end. People looked at the $$ spent on improvements and assumed that they added enduring value to the ship. They didn't. They just added a few years of regulatory compliance exceptions. |
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Now what was the
