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Post by vancouverecho on Jul 12, 2018 2:24:58 GMT -8
My guess that based upon the public statements, they've discovered more work that needs to be done on her.
Me reading between the lines says they probably found a lot of corrosion hidden deep within the structure. And as they started peeling away the interior, they found more of it. That's usually the culprit for causing a ship to be delayed out of refit.
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 12, 2018 6:26:03 GMT -8
My guess that based upon the public statements, they've discovered more work that needs to be done on her. Me reading between the lines says they probably found a lot of corrosion hidden deep within the structure. And as they started peeling away the interior, they found more of it. That's usually the culprit for causing a ship to be delayed out of refit. I concur with 'vancouverecho' that excessive, hidden corrosion may have been found in structural parts of the vessel that had either been missed on pre-purchase inspection or missed because they were so well hidden. This makes sense as previous posted photos show major work on all decks/areas of the ship. If there is deeply hidden corrosion within the structure of the vessel, I suppose there's not much chance of the seller being held liable for non-disclosure of the fact because the seller could claim they were unaware of the problem....or is there some recourse for the buyer (BCFS)? BCFS has not given us ANY information as to why the 'NSW' is on the 'disabled list and most likely gone for the season'. Upper body, lower body...who knows, but what if: a) we could find out what the status is of the First Nations artist that was to develop the artwork for the 'NSW'. I this project still a go or? b) we asked BCFS the question directly as to what the problem with the 'NSW' really is, would we get a straight answer? c) we find the 'NSW' discretely hidden away on some ship brokers' website...for sale, as is, where is, or: d) fix the problem whatever it is, and coupled with the realization that this vessel is deficient in many ways, most notably a lack of windows in seating areas that offer expansive views of the great outdoors along the route, take the dollar hit and sell the ship?. e) BCFS starts a new search for an appropriate vessel for this route?. Would the 'Freedom of Information Act be of any use in this exercise?
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Post by yvr on Jul 12, 2018 21:19:13 GMT -8
The latest posts certainly do not bode well for the little Northern Sea Wolf. Originally it was to go into service June 19th, then July 20th, and now 2 more months are needed with a hopeful first sailing of September 16th. Basically the season is scrubbed. Members such as "vancouverecho" and "Starsteward" pretty much tell the whole story in their posts above, and I would concur with their corrosion theory, perhaps located in the bilges. One of our members "Transit" who I believe is in the ferry business in Europe stated it very well in one of his posts from December: "Quote by member Transit" Well, they went and bought a Greek ship. The Greek are, I'm sorry to say, notoriously known for poor seamanship and shipbuilding. If that wasn't enough, they've ruined numerous ships from the rest of world by rebuilding them with their trademark, over-the-top clipper-like ship bows. I truly can't believe that this vessel was the best BC Ferries could find in today's market - there's a brimful of fine vessels from all across Europe. I'm afraid this speaks volumes about BC Ferries' technical department. "End Quote"
The way I see it is they bought a lemon! This refit was supposed to be a fixed price contract, but that won't be the case now. So it's time for BCF to come clean and tell us (1) What is the reason for the 3 month delay? (2) How much are 3 additional months of Shipyard work going to cost us? (C) Have the additional costs for this ferry exceeded the estimated purchase price of a new ferry, shall we say one with windows? (4) How did this additional problem or problems get missed on the initial evaluation? (5) How many more used Greek Ferries do BCF plan on acquiring in the future?
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 13, 2018 6:28:51 GMT -8
The latest posts certainly do not bode well for the little Northern Sea Wolf. Originally it was to go into service June 19th, then July 20th, and now 2 more months are needed with a hopeful first sailing of September 16th. Basically the season is scrubbed. Members such as "vancouverecho" and "Starsteward" pretty much tell the whole story in their posts above, and I would concur with their corrosion theory, perhaps located in the bilges. On of our members "Transit" who I believe is in the ferry business in Europe stated it very well in one of his posts from December: "Quote" Well, they went and bought a Greek ship. The Greek are, I'm sorry to say, notoriously known for poor seamanship and shipbuilding. If that wasn't enough, they've ruined numerous ships from the rest of world by rebuilding them with their trademark, over-the-top clipper-like ship bows. I truly can't believe that this vessel was the best BC Ferries could find in today's market - there's a brimful of fine vessels from all across Europe. I'm afraid this speaks volumes about BC Ferries' technical department. "End Quote" The way I see it is they bought a lemon! This refit was supposed to be a fixed price contract, but that won't be the case now. So it's time for BCF to come clean and tell us (1) What is the reason for the 3 month delay? (2) How much are 3 additional months of Shipyard work going to cost us? (C) Have the additional costs for this ferry exceeded the estimated purchase price of a new ferry, shall we say one with windows? (4) How did this additional problem or problems get missed on the initial evaluation? (5) How many more used Greek Ferries do BCF plan on acquiring in the future? While I agree with most of 'yvr's' insightful posting, there is one criticism of the Greeks I believe he is being a bit unjust. The Greeks are not known for great ship-building and ship maintenance, however to include poor seamanship in that critique is quite unjustified. Many of the Greek Captains and officers I've met during cruise travels and work related situations, have shown a very competent level of seamanship and I've no quarrel with sailing with the many chaps I've met. ( The captain that totalled the 'Costa Concordia' for instance was not a Greek chappy was he?) 'YVR' does pose several interesting questions which brought me to wondering if by now with these rising cost overruns and service cancellations, might it not be long before we hear some sort of utterance(s) from the Ferry Commissioner? If I were he, I would definitely have some very definitive questions regarding this entire project from vessel procurement, the scope of the refit to date etc. To conclude, I agree with 'yvr' that there are fine used vessels all across Europe which would be more suitable for this Northern excursion than what is turning out to be a 'Lemon'! If BCFS only paid my expenses, no salary, nada, I'd go and find them a vessel for less money than they've spent to date and goodness only knows how far up the price index the 'Price Is Right' mountaineer is going to go before he falls off the top of the mountain?
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 13, 2018 12:23:54 GMT -8
As this forum continues to maintain high standards of postings etc., my apologies to 'yvr' for incorrectly quoting him with reference to Greeks and poor seamanship when in fact, had I read his posting with 2 eyes not one, I would have seen that 'yvr' was quoting part of a posting by 'Transit'. Forty lashes!
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Post by Nickfro on Jul 13, 2018 13:51:43 GMT -8
The latest posts certainly do not bode well for the little Northern Sea Wolf. Originally it was to go into service June 19th, then July 20th, and now 2 more months are needed with a hopeful first sailing of September 16th. I think 'hopeful' for the first sailing to occur September 16th is extremely optimistic, so much to the point that they've allocated the Northern Adventure to handle the Central Coast at that time, and have provided no estimated timeline for the Northern Sea Wolf to commence service. Now with the waiting game for another drydock vacancy, who knows how long it will take, and if they even feel it makes sense to enter service during the winter months.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,272
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Post by Neil on Jul 13, 2018 21:25:38 GMT -8
I've been trying to figure out how I feel about this story.
(Cut to the therapist's office, where a Salman Rushdie lookalike, notepad in hand and glasses perched on the end of his nose, peers down at me on his couch, and asks, "So, Neil, how does the Northern Sea Wolf make you feel?...)
But really. I cut BC Ferries, and I guess, the government of the time, a lot of slack when they bought the Northern Adventure. It was an awful occasion; the loss of two lives on Queen of The North, and a need to get something, fast, to restore service to the north coast.
This isn't really the same situation. Route forty was eliminated, for very stupid reasons, and the Queen of Chilliwack was sold. Then, a couple of years later, the same government had a brilliant idea... "Hey! How about a new ferry route! You know, Port Hardy to Bella Coola!" They did their due (?) diligence, and bought Mr Shoppy One, or whatever it was called at the time. Too small, too old, and no windows where it mattered. But still, to the beleaguered folks on the central coast, it was a lifeline. And, no question, to this ferry fan's eye, it was kinda cute.
Now, it looks like the season is lost, for reasons we're not aware of. I have no idea why some people here are speculating about corrosion, or other supposed traits inherent with Greek construction. They have no information- just suspicions. We'll find out. But no question... this is a major botch up. Good that the NorAd will be re-positioned for September, but the tourist renaissance that the central coast was hoping for will have to wait until next year, at least.
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 16, 2018 6:03:09 GMT -8
I've been trying to figure out how I feel about this story. (Cut to the therapist's office, where a Salman Rushdie lookalike, notepad in hand and glasses perched on the end of his nose, peers down at me on his couch, and asks, "So, Neil, how does the Northern Sea Wolf make you feel?...) But really. I cut BC Ferries, and I guess, the government of the time, a lot of slack when they bought the Northern Adventure. It was an awful occasion; the loss of two lives on Queen of The North, and a need to get something, fast, to restore service to the north coast. This isn't really the same situation. Route forty was eliminated, for very stupid reasons, and the Queen of Chilliwack was sold. Then, a couple of years later, the same government had a brilliant idea... "Hey! How about a new ferry route! You know, Port Hardy to Bella Coola!" They did their due (?) diligence, and bought Mr Shoppy One, or whatever it was called at the time. Too small, too old, and no windows where it mattered. But still, to the beleaguered folks on the central coast, it was a lifeline. And, no question, to this ferry fan's eye, it was kinda cute. Now, it looks like the season is lost, for reasons we're not aware of. I have no idea why some people here are speculating about corrosion, or other supposed traits inherent with Greek construction. They have no information- just suspicions. We'll find out. But no question... this is a major botch up. Good that the NorAd will be re-positioned for September, but the tourist renaissance that the central coast was hoping for will have to wait until next year, at least. 'Neil', I was with you in the first four paragraphs of your posting, however I guess I need to 'clarify' my 'speculating' and 'suspicions' as to why the 'NSW' is definitely going to be late to the prom, so to speak. First of all, I wish I nor any of us had to speculate as to why the ENTIRE 2018 Summer season will be lost, the late insertion of the 'NorAD', notwithstanding. Some straight answers from senior management of BCFS regarding this project would be greatly appreciated in light of the fact that a minimum of $ 32.6 million has so far been spent on the 'NSW', purchase price $12.6 million and as reported by Mark Wilson, V.P. of Strategy & Community Engagement a complete Mid-Life upgrade sucking up approximately $20+ million dollars (that should have been completed by now). Given that all repair work, painting etc. was completed in the MLU dry-docking stage, there's only one reason the hull requires hauling out of the water again. 'Something' is amiss with the hull (integrity) be it well-hidden corrosion, previously undiscovered construction deficiencies or whatever, as I doubt that BCFS is tossing in the towel on the 2018 Summer season because they want to paint pretty murals on the hull. Several additional months in a dry-dock don't jive with the original 'make-over schedule' and commencement of the Summer season on this resurrected route. The current stilted jargon emanating from senior management at BCFS I believe is only a prelude to when BCFS summons up the courage to come clean on what's shaping up to the Clarke/Liberal administration's version of the 'Fast Cat' fiasco. Perhaps it's the Summer recess that's delaying the inevitable crap from hitting the legislature fan, but a word to the current administration, Get On This! Frankly the suspense is killing me.
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Post by Dane on Jul 16, 2018 9:20:23 GMT -8
I'm just curious who is paying for this?
If the ship is in that bad a shape I wonder if we will see a lawsuit? And don't ship purchases enaure some form of condition guaranteur? Like Lloyd's, for example?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 16, 2018 10:14:17 GMT -8
Some excerpts from a March 31, 2017 consulting report engaged by BC Ferries to report to the Ferry Commissioner, regarding the used mid-coast vessel purchase & refit: from HERE
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 17, 2018 5:59:57 GMT -8
Some excerpts from a March 31, 2017 consulting report engaged by BC Ferries to report to the Ferry Commissioner, regarding the used mid-coast vessel purchase & refit: from HERE Thanks for digging up the March 31, 2017 consulting report. The first section: 'Modification of the vessel': Credit BCFS for hiring the International service provider who did get the vessel to home port within a reasonable time. (The bad paint job in Greece not withstanding). Within the next section:'Consequences of a delay in the in-service date'. At this point in time I'd say BCFS is 0 for 3, = fail in this section. Within the section: 'Procurement cost risks and how will they be mitigated'. Line 1: Unknown defects/residual risks: I believe this is where the current 'fly-in-the-ointment' resides. IF BCFS has become aware of problems that were not initially found during pre-purchase inspections, this may explain why the vessel requires further dry-docking time. The latest situation/condition/problem that has arisen has obviously fallen outside the initial dry-dock planning schedule, and we know there is no facilities available for at least the next two months. As previously stated, with some 35+ million dollars spent on this vessel to date and with BCFS scoring pretty much a failing grade on the three sections described above, I'd suspect the Ferry Commissioner should become VERY interested in this project, sooner than later. Regarding the issue of the possible 'NSW' paint-out. I have checked with several of my old sea-going cronies and mentioned that the "NSW' may now be bereft of her name on both sides of the vessel and the 'slugs' on the funnels Perhaps the best reply came from my dear old Scottish mate who put it this way: "Aw laddie, when a company paints out those markings on a ship, it's a sure sign that they want nothin' to do with 'er. "Bad business I'd say", he said.
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Post by Nickfro on Jul 17, 2018 10:54:41 GMT -8
The CBC has released an article on this matter, albeit a few days after the announcement. . . Link to article HERE. A couple things that I take from the article. . . The article notes the Northern Sea Wolf will replace the Northern Adventure after October 11. I haven't seen any factual information on this, and feel they've assumed this is the case because that's when BCFS states the Northern Adventure will wrap up it's time on the route. I interpret October 11 as when the Discovery Coast summer schedule ends, and not when the Northern Sea Wolf enters service. One of the comments posted below this article wonders why people would care about the longer sailing times on the Nimpkish as opposed to the Northern Sea Wolf, and why people would be cancelling their trips. I don't think that poster really knows the differences between the two vessels when it comes to size, amenities and general comfort. I have not been on the Nimpkish before, but I could only imagine being restricted to one little room with bench seating for double digit hours, and the amazing F&B service that accompanies that space.
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Post by Brandon S on Jul 17, 2018 11:17:24 GMT -8
Quoted from the article "Hermance says what should be a 10-hour journey on the Northern Sea Wolf becomes a 16-hour trip on the Nimpkish and that ship has been arriving mostly empty."
Personally I wouldn't dare spend 10 hours on the Sea Wolf, let alone any ship unless it's one of the larger ones. Another thing that I have heard is that some work had to be done to the back door as it was not large enough to fit ANY large tractor trailers on it.
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 18, 2018 6:49:34 GMT -8
The promenade deck along the length of the ship intrigues me, as a place that I would spend considerable time at during a trip on this ship. I thought I'd do a quick look-through of the entire 'NSW' thread and we have had our fair share of back and forth on this vessel acquisition. With this picture of the 'NSW' taken at Victoria Shipyards apparently 'AFTER' most of the 'MLU' had been completed, am I just being picky or why is there a boom encircling the 'NSW'? The placement of a boom around a vessel is not usually done unless a problem has been discovered or watch-keeping personnel have determined that a problem may arise and the placement of a boom is a 'precautionary' move. ...Just wonderin'
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Post by yvr on Jul 18, 2018 19:16:57 GMT -8
Went down do the dry dock the other day. From the looks of things, all the BCF paint has been removed and all that is left is the blue on the smoke stacks. Security guy told me it should have been gone in March but he doesn't know when it will be leaving. All I know is that there is a warship in the drycok until September and a Cruise Ship in after, so if BCF needs a dry dock then they would have to go somewhere else.
At this point in time I believe it would be very beneficial to have a couple of photo's of the NSW in her white out paint scheme. Where else can one see a B.C. Ferry that's just received a brand new paint job, and then a couple of weeks later in a move to avoid political embarrassment have it all removed by painting it out. We have to wonder how much this nonsense is costing us? But in the mean time can one of our members please get a photo of the ghost ship.
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Post by Dane on Jul 19, 2018 7:03:12 GMT -8
I highly doubt the paint thing is political. It was a horrific paint job that needed to be redone prewrap no doubt.
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Post by yvr on Jul 19, 2018 7:22:26 GMT -8
I highly doubt the paint thing is political. It was a horrific paint job that needed to be redone prewrap no doubt. What appears horrific, if you scroll up just 3 postings, you'll see Starsteward re-posted a photo of the NSW that was taken only 2 month's ago. That was the second time you paid for the livery application. The first time was in Greece, which might be what your referring to.
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Post by Dane on Jul 19, 2018 12:10:10 GMT -8
That isn't a second paint job. It's just touched up. Was done months ago, like the week after arrival.
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Post by minstrel on Jul 19, 2018 19:10:44 GMT -8
Down at Esquimalt lagoon this afternoon, although I did not have Binoculars, It appeared in the Distance that Northern Sea Wolf has all of the BC Ferries Markings It arrived with, and I don't believe anything has been painted out as some posters suggest. I may be wrong but The ship is quite visable from Esquimalt Lagoon.
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Post by yvr on Jul 19, 2018 19:30:20 GMT -8
Scott's photo's on page 11 are showing a very tired looking NSW. The Greeks version of hull lettering "BC Ferries" appears to have performed free hand, all the letters are poorly formed. Now check the CTV video clip above, and it appears the hull is being prepped for paint. To redo the hull lettering a clean base coat is required and for marketing purposes the hull lettering was completely redone in dry dock, one will notice how uniform the letters now are, and the hull is clean and shiny.
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Post by yvr on Jul 19, 2018 19:32:50 GMT -8
Down at Esquimalt lagoon this afternoon, although I did not have Binoculars, It appeared in the Distance that Northern Sea Wolf has all of the BC Ferries Markings It arrived with, and I don't believe anything has been painted out as some posters suggest. I may be wrong but The ship is quite visable from Esquimalt Lagoon. That's good news, however to settle all disagreements maybe someone can take a photo.
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Post by Brandon S on Jul 20, 2018 8:41:50 GMT -8
Down at Esquimalt lagoon this afternoon, although I did not have Binoculars, It appeared in the Distance that Northern Sea Wolf has all of the BC Ferries Markings It arrived with, and I don't believe anything has been painted out as some posters suggest. I may be wrong but The ship is quite visable from Esquimalt Lagoon. That's good news, however to settle all disagreements maybe someone can take a photo. There should be a photo next week. My dad tried yesterday but they had a bunch of junk in the way, and he wants a good shot for me.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 20, 2018 16:45:05 GMT -8
Some candid comments from BC Ferries on the Northern Sea Wolf's lost summer: I like the complimentary 2019 fare option: I like the tone of this: from HERE
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Post by Chris City on Jul 21, 2018 15:18:49 GMT -8
Down at Esquimalt lagoon this afternoon, although I did not have Binoculars, It appeared in the Distance that Northern Sea Wolf has all of the BC Ferries Markings It arrived with, and I don't believe anything has been painted out as some posters suggest. I may be wrong but The ship is quite visable from Esquimalt Lagoon. That's good news, however to settle all disagreements maybe someone can take a photo. Photo taken this morning.
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 21, 2018 16:50:02 GMT -8
I guess we can scuttle the doomsday scenarios we've tossed around as to why the vessel was 'painted-out' as we can clearly see that all is well with that end of the saga. Perhaps the boom around the vessel is there to protect the hull /intakes from anything 'seaside' rather than anything escaping from the vessel. Yes, BCFS is away ahead of how they are handling the schedule restart situation as compared to the mess that Irish Ferries found themselves fouled up in with their customers. It sounds like BCFS's initial pre-purchase inspection wasn't as thorough as it should or could have been as it sounds like the company is relating at this point. I'm still not sure if the company's latest explanation gets them off the hook but time and customer reaction once service commences will tell the tale. Overall however, I submit the 'NSW" is an inappropriate vessel for the many reasons our members have pointed out and until further conversion work is done will remain a less than viable vessel for this route.
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