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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 24, 2017 19:27:18 GMT -8
Here's the latest update on the Bella Coola - Port Hardy ferry & route:
- from the 2016/17 Q3 Management's Discussion & Analysis Report:
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,272
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Post by Neil on Feb 24, 2017 21:27:29 GMT -8
Here's the latest update on the Bella Coola - Port Hardy ferry & route: - from the 2016/17 Q3 Management's Discussion & Analysis Report: Gee... seems to me that not so long ago, the province had a vessel that more or less suited the service, and it fit into the existing docks just fine. It had also just been renovated at considerable expense, and probably would have been operating right now and into the near future with all the necessary TC licensing. But sometimes, ya just gotta try to re-invent the wheel, even if in the end it turns out that the best wheel is still the old fashioned round variety... and even if you spend millions in the effort.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 9, 2017 12:30:22 GMT -8
The application has been made to the Ferry Commissioner for the mid-coast ferry service (the reinstatement of a Bella Coola - Port Hardy election route): Link HERE to the 50 page document. Highlights, over the next few posts: They are calling this "Routes 10s and 28" The Queen of Nanaimo "Plan B" (get it, Plan "B") has been noted by me in a post into the Queen of Nanaimo thread, in case there is discussion of that very unlikely scenario.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 9, 2017 12:45:02 GMT -8
More from the March 9, 2017 report to the Ferry Commissioner:
OK, so this means that the new summer ship is also going to be the Nimpkish replacement. ie not 2 separate ships, as I had originally thought.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 9, 2017 12:57:19 GMT -8
Key characteristics of new Route 28: (from the chart on Page 9 of the PDF report)
mid-June to mid-September
2.5 round trips per week
10 hour trip (or less), at 13.5 knots (fits a 12-hour work day for crew)
Capacity is 35 AEQ and up to 150 passengers/crew.
On-board amenities commensurate to the type of tourism experience being marketed: food services, comfortable seating, lounge spaces,outdoor viewing, wheelchair accessible
No passenger cabins
Crew cabins for live-aboard
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In the peak season, service provided for Route 10s (connector to Bella Bella) will be on days when the vessel is not servicing Route 28.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 9, 2017 13:02:10 GMT -8
The reason for the recent change to the Section 55 requirement (where the Province is a reason for buying a ship)
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 9, 2017 13:07:41 GMT -8
The new (used) ship:
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The desired used vessel is "Euro SOLAS B to be classed in Canada as Near Coastal 2"
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 9, 2017 13:17:24 GMT -8
Terminal modifications for the desired new (used) ship:
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,272
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Post by Neil on Mar 9, 2017 21:52:16 GMT -8
Appreciation to Mr Horn for posting and summarizing the particulars of this project.
One thing that really stands out with regard to preparing the mid-coast for this new vessel is what looks like a major rebuild at Ocean Falls. The Queen of Chilliwack apparently fit fine at Ocean Falls, but this new, small vessel needs new structures.
Total vehicles that passed through Ocean Falls in 2016: 73. Seventy three, in the entire year. But because they just had to save some money by cancelling the 'Chilliwack's service, Ocean Falls now has to be rebuilt for a 'new' route.
Now there's prudent infrastructure management.
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Post by WettCoast on Mar 9, 2017 22:09:56 GMT -8
The new BC Liberal arithmetic: 28 is equal to 40.
A sham by any other name.
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Post by mirrlmak on Mar 14, 2017 8:29:28 GMT -8
Does anyone know if the ex Queen of Chilliwack would have met the honourable minister's latest requirements for a ship to replace the Nimpkish on this route?:-) (I am aware it used to primarily do this route)
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 14, 2017 9:15:36 GMT -8
Does anyone know if the ex Queen of Chilliwack would have met the honourable minister's latest requirements for a ship to replace the Nimpkish on this route?:-) (I am aware it used to primarily do this route) That depends on whether you mean a properly working Queen of Chilliwack, or the tired ship that was barely hanging on at the end. The theoretical perfectly running Queen of Chilliwack would have mostly met the Minister's criteria, except for seakeeping being too much of a rolling ship for passenger comfort. The real mechanically unreliable Queen of Chilliwack would have had too many breakdowns to be a qualifying ship, and her rolling would be another strike against her. It's sad that many people think that she was a good ship at the end, simply because of all the regulatory-compliance money spent on her. That foolishly spent money didn't change that she was still a poor old ship. I'm looking forward to a better ship for this old/new route.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 14, 2017 10:06:19 GMT -8
One more thing: A heavy 110 car ferry like the Queen of Chilliwack would be overkill for the offseason connector route. Too expensive to operate for the low off-season traffic.
So a compromise ship is a good idea, especially for the economy of the 9.5 months when traffic is low.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,272
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Post by Neil on Mar 14, 2017 10:49:41 GMT -8
Does anyone know if the ex Queen of Chilliwack would have met the honourable minister's latest requirements for a ship to replace the Nimpkish on this route?:-) (I am aware it used to primarily do this route) That depends on whether you mean a properly working Queen of Chilliwack, or the tired ship that was barely hanging on at the end. The theoretical perfectly running Queen of Chilliwack would have mostly met the Minister's criteria, except for seakeeping being too much of a rolling ship for passenger comfort. The real mechanically unreliable Queen of Chilliwack would have had too many breakdowns to be a qualifying ship, and her rolling would be another strike against her. It's sad that many people think that she was a good ship at the end, simply because of all the regulatory-compliance money spent on her. That foolishly spent money didn't change that she was still a poor old ship. I'm looking forward to a better ship for this old/new route. Mr Horn, I have to disagree. (Especially with the "sad" comment. I hope you aren't going to start tweeting at four in the morning. ) I always hated the ' Chilliwack, but whatever her deficiencies, I think it would have been better to spend the money to upgrade her mechanically and maintain route forty. My main reason for saying this is the damage that has been done to the economy of the central coast, based on what I've read. Yes, a new vessel was always needed, and that would have been the best route at the time, but a few more years could have been squeezed out of the ' Chilliwack, and I think there would have been an overall net financial benefit to the province. This new vessel seems too small, if the 35 AEQ figure is true. If I recall correctly, route 40 had capacity utilization figures around the mark, which would mean that there would have been many trips where 35 would have been inadequate. It doesn't seem to allow for any growth in tourist traffic, although I'll grant that this vessel will be fine for the off season for many years to come.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 14, 2017 11:21:58 GMT -8
Mr Horn, I have to disagree. (Especially with the "sad" comment. I hope you aren't going to start tweeting at four in the morning. ) I always hated the ' Chilliwack, but whatever her deficiencies, I think it would have been better to spend the money to upgrade her mechanically and maintain route forty. My main reason for saying this is the damage that has been done to the economy of the central coast, based on what I've read. Yes, a new vessel was always needed, and that would have been the best route at the time, but a few more years could have been squeezed out of the ' Chilliwack, and I think there would have been an overall net financial benefit to the province. This new vessel seems too small, if the 35 AEQ figure is true. If I recall correctly, route 40 had capacity utilization figures around the mark, which would mean that there would have been many trips where 35 would have been inadequate. It doesn't seem to allow for any growth in tourist traffic, although I'll grant that this vessel will be fine for the off season for many years to come. I think two of my biases shone-through to tarnish my reply. 1) That the new ship should have been ordered 5-10 years ago, resulting in a purpose-built ship suited to the routes. - So I compare the old Chilliwack to that ideal. 2)I've seen too many "pefectly fine ship" comments on facebook groups that decried the sale of the 'Chilliwack to Goundar. - I've got my auto-reply ready for these comments, to explain that the ship wasn't great, and most of the money spent in the final years was just to keep her barely regulatory-compliant. Yes, she could have been used for a few more years on Route-40, with the tolerance of some expected breakdowns each season. Even if it was just to do 2 direct Port Hardy - Bella Coola round trips each week in the summer. That would have made a huge difference for the tourism economy in the mid-coast and Chilcotin.
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Post by mirrlmak on Mar 14, 2017 13:06:49 GMT -8
I respect the opinions shared - I am not an expert! I do however believe that if you build it (route capacity upgrades) they will come - so, for example I can only imagine how slow this route is in the winter; but its a self fulfilling prophecy, people won't use it if it is inconsistent/expensive/unknown. I agree with the service upgrades, and I believe that communities such as Ocean Falls and Bella Coola more importantly will see an uptick in tourism/real estate in a matter of a few years (especially when the German tourists see how beautiful this route is!). Anyway, I understand this thread is technically regarding the Nimpkish - I'm just still surprised this vessel was selected and continued throughout the years for this route.
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Post by Kahn_C on Mar 14, 2017 21:22:24 GMT -8
Let the rampant used boat speculation and internet searching begin... We're looking for things like this. More. I realize that's not likely to be the vessel, but it's an internet treasure hunt (plus that one's close). Edit: For the professionally curious, after more internetting, I believe that particular vessel is the Greek ferry Aqua Spirit, not currently listed for sale, but also not currently included in the fleet profile for her current owner, Sea Jets Ferry (formerly operated by NEL Lines). Marine Traffic Link
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Post by roeco on Mar 15, 2017 11:18:58 GMT -8
Summer schedule should probably be longer than the BC ferries world of mid June-mid Sept, victoria day weekend to mid sept would seem to make more sense as peak tourist season starts before middle of June. Maybe they could offer one direct trip between mid May-mid June instead of running the off season schedule! I know one of the biggest issues before was time into Bella Coola or Port Hardy. With a proposed 10 hr run time maybe that will change.
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Post by Starsteward on Mar 16, 2017 11:48:20 GMT -8
I respect the opinions shared - I am not an expert! I do however believe that if you build it (route capacity upgrades) they will come - so, for example I can only imagine how slow this route is in the winter; but its a self fulfilling prophecy, people won't use it if it is inconsistent/expensive/unknown. I agree with the service upgrades, and I believe that communities such as Ocean Falls and Bella Coola more importantly will see an uptick in tourism/real estate in a matter of a few years (especially when the German tourists see how beautiful this route is!). Anyway, I understand this thread is technically regarding the Nimpkish - I'm just still surprised this vessel was selected and continued throughout the years for this route. The former Mid-Coast run was experiencing a gradual increase in passenger and vehicle traffic. Many tourism operators who had incurred start-up and upgrade costs were incensed at the government's cancellation of this route and relating to these operators that indeed there had been consultation. Word WAS getting out, especially to European travellers as to the grandeur that part of our province exuded. Europeans for the most part a awe struck as to the vastness of our 'back-yard' and its scenery. When word of mouth advertising went from very good to 'route cancelled', all momentum gained in previous years went out the window. It is very difficult to resurrect a tourist feature at the drop of a hat, or election writ, oops. but I agree the used ship candidate should be of size and facilities that allow for a growth of traffic over time. For what it is worth I agree that the summer season should start mid-May, as it did years ago and end at the end of September.
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Post by Starsteward on Mar 16, 2017 11:51:45 GMT -8
Let the rampant used boat speculation and internet searching begin... We're looking for things like this. More. I realize that's not likely to be the vessel, but it's an internet treasure hunt (plus that one's close). Edit: For the professionally curious, after more internetting, I believe that particular vessel is the Greek ferry Aqua Spirit, not currently listed for sale, but also not currently included in the fleet profile for her current owner, Sea Jets Ferry (formerly operated by NEL Lines). Marine Traffic Link Good investigative searching there, Kahn C you may well be onto something. It wouldn't be the first time we've bought a ship from a Greek company. If it is indeed the 'used candidate', it's not a bad looking vessel either. Nice bow and profile.
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Post by Kahn_C on Mar 16, 2017 22:08:17 GMT -8
I was feeling bored and cheeky tonight, so I present a horribly photoshopped MV Northern Election (NorEl). (Original Photo of Aqua Spirit by George Koutsoukis)
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Post by yvr on Mar 17, 2017 20:38:05 GMT -8
From page 28 of the application to the Ferry Commissioner is the following paragraph:
5.1.2 Vessel Acquisition BC Ferries is following a standard procurement process to acquire a used vessel using brokerage services to identify suitable options. Two international European-based brokerages have been utilized to monitor the global market for vessels that meet BC Ferries’ requirements. From the myriad of vessels offered on the open market, and of those that were not officially on market, two suitable vessels were identified for detailed inspection. In each case a BC Ferries technical team of senior representatives visited the vessel in operation and conducted detailed inspections with the owner. A purchase offer was made on the first vessel but was not concluded due to the owner’s inability to release the vessel from current operations. An initial purchase offer was made on the candidate used vessel and negotiation of a final offer is currently underway with the assistance of a broker.
It appears BCF's first choice for a ferry acquisition did not succeed, but if I'm reading this correctly they are negotiating on the second choice. (Is the wording of that last sentence vague on purpose?)
It appears scheduling will be just over 10 trips a month on the Port Hardy - Bella Coola route and it holds 35 AEQ, or a lot less with crew cab pickups, 5th wheels, and motorhomes, that's not a lot of capacity. Yes they will have a ferry on the route, but no doubt it will run full all summer leaving no room for capacity expansion. This small ferry answers the government wish for ferry service, that fact that it maybe too small in the summer doesn't even enter the equation - the bottom line is the current government has produced a ferry - just in time for the election.
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Post by articulated on Mar 18, 2017 7:01:16 GMT -8
From page 28 of the application to the Ferry Commissioner is the following paragraph: 5.1.2 Vessel Acquisition BC Ferries is following a standard procurement process to acquire a used vessel using brokerage services to identify suitable options. Two international European-based brokerages have been utilized to monitor the global market for vessels that meet BC Ferries’ requirements. From the myriad of vessels offered on the open market, and of those that were not officially on market, two suitable vessels were identified for detailed inspection. In each case a BC Ferries technical team of senior representatives visited the vessel in operation and conducted detailed inspections with the owner. A purchase offer was made on the first vessel but was not concluded due to the owner’s inability to release the vessel from current operations. An initial purchase offer was made on the candidate used vessel and negotiation of a final offer is currently underway with the assistance of a broker. It appears BCF's first choice for a ferry acquisition did not succeed, but if I'm reading this correctly they are negotiating on the second choice. (Is the wording of that last sentence vague on purpose?) It appears scheduling will be just over 10 trips a month on the Port Hardy - Bella Coola route and it holds 35 AEQ, or a lot less with crew cab pickups, 5th wheels, and motorhomes, that's not a lot of capacity. Yes they will have a ferry on the route, but no doubt it will run full all summer leaving no room for capacity expansion. This small ferry answers the government wish for ferry service, that fact that it maybe too small in the summer doesn't even enter the equation - the bottom line is the current government has produced a ferry - just in time for the election. My interpretation of that paragraph is that the first vessel was not available in the the timeframe BC Ferries was looking at (similar to if a buyer for Queen of Burnaby wanted to take possession in the end of 2016). In terms of the second vessel, it sounds like they are still negotiating a sale price - similar to any real estate purchase, the buyer makes the first offer, the seller makes a counter-offer, and the two sides keep making offers to work towards somewhere in the middle. It may be a little vague if only because there is no guarantee the offer will be accepted. I agree, 35 AEQ is not a lot of capacity for this type of a route. It would probably work well on the 10S off-season route (as a more direct Nimpkish-replacement) but unless they expect most passengers to park their vehicles at Port Hardy or Bella Coola (and route 28 becomes marketed more as a "day cruise"), the 28 summer route will have capacity issues after a few seasons.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 18, 2017 8:09:51 GMT -8
A reason why I'm skeptical of the 35 AEQ being adequate per the BCFS statistics of old Route-40 is that I think they might be taking a Route-40 average, and not just the Port Hardy - Bella Coola day-trip statistics.
As we know, Route-40 was really two distinct routes, traffic wise: 1) Low traffic on the overnight sailings to Bella Bella, Shearwater, Klemtu, Ocean Falls. 2) High traffic on the direct day-trips between Port Hardy & Bella Coola on Monday and Thursday.
Lots of rented motorhomes on the direct day trips, and lots of cars too. Much more than a 35 AEQ ship could handle.
BC Ferries and the Province have used bad and incorrect statistics before. Maybe it's happening again.
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Post by Kahn_C on Mar 18, 2017 8:47:54 GMT -8
But probably quite intentionally. *gazes into the conspiracy ball* "A few year later..." "Route 28 wildly successful, exceeded all expectations, traffic way up over old average, new boat planned." "Route 10s not going as well, won't get service from new boat, but province is committed to maintaining service levels with the Northern Election."
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