Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on May 14, 2008 21:12:08 GMT -8
Well, don't remain hidden as a guest. Try expressing those ideas out loud, maybe . This isn't a small nook or cranny we're talking about. This is hundreds of millions of dollars now and, when you get right down to it, the government would have a lot less money to mess around with anyway if it wasn't for the general population from whom they generate revenue by taxation. (This is basic economics) It's not their money, it's ours and they should well be trying to protect it: that's what their job is. yeah , i agree with Mill Bay ,don`t hide ,put up your post and stand behind it , don`t be afraid of a few personal attacks ,most of us [on the forum] live to correct people and have suffered our share of flak over our views[and punctuation] but :-[so what?? that`s why your here ,right? I was actually really rolling my eyes with this one Shipchandler because the poster was way out and was taking personal shots at someone in their original post. I just get a little weary of the political razmataz that frequently gets posted on the forum, especially when I suddenly have some sort of snap and feel I need to contribute my own political cynicism to the fray. I always feel a little bit self-indicted after posting some sort of political funk because I know I don't have enough worldly wisdom to back up my own acidic viewpoints. But, yeah, if someone wants to be cynical, at least have the guts to sign your name to it.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 8, 2008 14:31:23 GMT -8
How times have changed. Eighteen years ago a foreign yard was crying foul over BC Ferries favouring local builders.
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Post by shipchandler on Aug 6, 2008 5:18:03 GMT -8
Hmmmm, once again, im gonna stay quiet on this one................ lol
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Post by Rod Smelser on Sept 16, 2008 14:46:47 GMT -8
I enjoyed your photo of the Sidney Class Revival. I wonder when it was taken?
The Sidney is now decaying at a pier near Mission and I gather the Tsawwassen is on its way oversear. A tragic loss of history.
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 16, 2008 16:14:03 GMT -8
I enjoyed your photo of the Sidney Class Revival. I wonder when it was taken? The Sidney is now decaying at a pier near Mission and I gather the Tsawwassen is on its way oversear. A tragic loss of history. Interesting that a comment on a photo-tribute to the Sidney class finds it's way onto a political discussion thread... I won't try to attach any irony to it, however. The image was taken variously from the bluffs atop Active Pass on the Galiano side. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether one of the ships seen passing is really the Sidney, or not... Does one ship miss not seeing the other? Also, credit where credit is due: I never would have had the idea if Chris haldn't posted his current signature of the Tsawwassen wondering where her sister is... Don't ever let him tell you he has no creative talents.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 10, 2009 5:48:23 GMT -8
I won't say every union is in the position to promote themselves in the eyes of the public, but many are and still don't. I look at the Philadelphia Carpenters Union as a good example. Failure to promote themselves and their members as equal hire/equal opportunity has cost the union one of the biggest ongoing projects in the city. So you know, their "slush" fund is valued in the hundreds of millions and they are not afraid to dip into it to win jobs...and they still fail to promote themselves. As for worrying about what the media says, it is no issue down here for those unions wishing to show their clout. US union have been known to seriously swing voting blocks in favour of the candidate of their choice...not something to scoff at. The boogeyman of union omnipotence is a canard best left to charlatans like Bull O'Reilly and Boss Limbaugh. I don't know about your tale of unions with the riches of Croesus, but a mere 12% of American workers are unionized, and many organized working people today are engaged in a downhill race to give back benefits and wages before the pink slips arrive. Most unions have little power to elect anyone outside of very local officials, and the notion of our shipyard workers playing a pivotal role in any election here is laughable. Personally, I forgo accusing ducks of anything! ;D I do however take some pretty serious offense to the implied association with two of the most annoying and bigoted jabber mouths to grace the airwaves of the US. The notion that I would make up a "tale" about something that is both documented and that I deal with daily is stepping over the line, too. Let's set the record out for you. The Philadelphia Carpenters Union had, prior to the massive slip in the investment market, a billion dollar, yes, $1,000,000,000.00, contingency fund. Though that fund has taken a hit, the fund is still in the $500,000,000 range. I work for a signed company, and personally, I have nothing to gain from deriding the union and everything to benefit by the union doing well. However, that does not mean I can not see when the union makes a blunder as I pointed out regarding their loss of the convention centre rehab and expansion project. Pure, stupid politics and failure to adequately promote themselves and the membership. You are correct in saying unions are scrambling to avoid layoffs, but the flip side to this is, so is joe average nonunion worker. And most of them don't have the salary, benefits or organization to make deals. I'm just being realistic here. As for the unions in the US not having political clout...I implore you to research this a little more carefully. Ask Arne what a little health care union opposition can do to your political ambitions. Ask Hillary what the unions towing the line for the other candidate can do for you. You may have watched from the sidelines over the last 18 months, but I lived and breathed it. I voted for Obama because I saw what McCain had in store for the working person, unionized or not. However, I think that the Democrat agenda will eventually fundamentally weaken the unions by legislating universal workers rights that have typically been the bailiwick of the union. It is my feeling this is what has truly weakened the union presence in Canada. Workers no longer feel the need to unionize to protect themselves because they believe legally they have sufficient rights. Just my opinion! I could go into a huge diatribe about universal health care, social security, workers rights, taxes....etc, but I won't.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Mar 10, 2009 9:10:22 GMT -8
I could go into a huge diatribe about universal health care, social security, workers rights, taxes....etc, but I won't. Agreed. I won't either. I said I don't know about your carpenters union remark; I didn't say you were making it up. We were talking specifically about shipbuilding in BC, and the role the unionized workers have or don't have in the state of their industry. I don't see that the fortunes of the Philadelphia Carpenters Union, or who Hillary blames for her loss, or Schwarzenegger's stand on health care, really have a lot of bearing. In any event, I'm getting the impression that this is a case of me single handedly taking on the nefarious tag team of D'Elete Exploration, with refereeing by the dubiously impartial Lefty McHorn. If this ganging up continues, I'm going to move on from 'absolute' remarks to folding chairs and other foreign objects. You've been warned.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 10, 2009 10:49:44 GMT -8
I could go into a huge diatribe about universal health care, social security, workers rights, taxes....etc, but I won't. Agreed. I won't either. I said I don't know about your carpenters union remark; I didn't say you were making it up. We were talking specifically about shipbuilding in BC, and the role the unionized workers have or don't have in the state of their industry. I don't see that the fortunes of the Philadelphia Carpenters Union, or who Hillary blames for her loss, or Schwarzenegger's stand on health care, really have a lot of bearing. In any event, I'm getting the impression that this is a case of me single handedly taking on the nefarious tag team of D'Elete Exploration, with refereeing by the dubiously impartial Lefty McHorn. If this ganging up continues, I'm going to move on from 'absolute' remarks to folding chairs and other foreign objects. You've been warned. Well, I think you are reading a little too deeply into the connection of NE's thoughts and positions on this topic and mine. I admit we do joke back and forth a lot, but I would suggest his position and mine are not cross influenced or cross dressed...I would also suggest leaving the chair throwing to the professionals...besides, to me, you are now a foreign object...wait a minute by that definition, so are NE and Flug...let the foreign object flinging begin... We were discussing how the union policies seemed to be lacking in the public relations department. You then stated " Unions have a very limited ability to 'engage the public' with a view to promoting their continued employment." I disagreed and provided an example of a union who has the ability to do such self promotion, but failed to do so. You then dismissed me with the following statement "The boogeyman of union omnipotence is a canard best left to charlatans like Bull O'Reilly and Boss Limbaugh. I don't know about your tale of unions with the riches of Croesus"... canard - often used in English to refer to a deliberately false story... tale - a series of events or facts told or presented...or as implied - an intentionally untrue report; a libelous report or piece of gossip...I leave it to the masses to decipher that thought. My "tale" about the PCU was an example of where good money was sent after a bad policy. The city wanted to increase the employment of minority contractors, and the union, instead of emphasizing the number of minority carpenters in their ranks, choose to threaten the city with work stoppages...just plain bad public relations...half the money and twice the benefit could have been realized had they had the foresight to promote themselves instead of threaten. But that's a horse now beaten dead, and I won't mention it again. You also stated "Most unions have little power to elect anyone outside of very local officials, and the notion of our shipyard workers playing a pivotal role in any election here is laughable." To which I put forward two pivotal examples of union involvement in US politics which followed directly from my comment "US unions have been known to seriously swing voting blocks in favour of the candidate of their choice...not something to scoff at." My point was merely that, when they choose too, unions have some recourse to protect themselves. Most public relations are not about spending money; they are about putting your best face forward and enticing people to look. Money helps, sometimes, but connections and good relations are more important. And all the money in the world will have a hard time beating a bad rep! So I have sharpened up my chair legs to a honed point, and filed the chair backs to a razor's edge...I think I'll let NE grease himself up and get the catapult ready for launch...I think I here the pipes and horns over yonder hills... ;D
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Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 10, 2009 11:16:45 GMT -8
Agreed. I won't either. I said I don't know about your carpenters union remark; I didn't say you were making it up. We were talking specifically about shipbuilding in BC, and the role the unionized workers have or don't have in the state of their industry. I don't see that the fortunes of the Philadelphia Carpenters Union, or who Hillary blames for her loss, or Schwarzenegger's stand on health care, really have a lot of bearing. In any event, I'm getting the impression that this is a case of me single handedly taking on the nefarious tag team of D'Elete Exploration, with refereeing by the dubiously impartial Lefty McHorn. If this ganging up continues, I'm going to move on from 'absolute' remarks to folding chairs and other foreign objects. You've been warned. Well, I think you are reading a little too deeply into the connection of NE's thoughts and positions on this topic and mine. I admit we do joke back and forth a lot, but I would suggest his position and mine are not cross influenced or cross dressed... How can we agree when half the time I don't have a clue what he is saying especially when he gets into that physics/engineering gobbleygook. Besides he is a BC Island Boy and I am a Big City Eastern Bossy Pants who likes to tell Rurals what to do. eeeeew that wouldn't be a pretty sight. Whatever the opposite of eyecandy is, maybe eyepollution would decribe me I am sure. In the bigger picture I think a lack of union education to the general public and some ill advised very public strikes have helped errode unions position and the general publics opinion of them. I have alluded before to seeing polling to that very fact. If unions are just interested in their own membership and growing bigger and bigger, and act more and more corporate (have you seen some of the salaries of the union bosses?), then they are the authors of their own demise. Not bad for an engineer. Even more eeeeeeew. Pipes? Did you watch Brave Heart or something last night?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Mar 10, 2009 14:12:58 GMT -8
Both you guys denying you're a tag team, but I have to say, you sure do an excellent job of following each other over the top rope. Ref, I didn't see a legal tag there... There is a substantial, though admittedly subtle, difference between accusing someone in particular of willfully sowing a canard, and saying that something is a canard. My intent was the latter. It's probably pointless for us to broaden a specific discussion about the shipyard workers and their industry into a potpourri where all sorts of generalizations about everything from Hillary Clinton to some union head's salary get tossed. (My union president would probably be quite amused to hear how wealthy some people think he is.) Our shrunken shipyards, and the people they employ, aren't responsible for whatever opinions other people might have about the union movement in general.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 10, 2009 16:22:09 GMT -8
Both you guys denying you're a tag team, but I have to say, you sure do an excellent job of following each other over the top rope. Ref, I didn't see a legal tag there... Well I suppose we both can't resist some types of comments and opportunities for a little jest. When you work in a stressful industry as we both do, 1 minute here and there of some jocularity helps. I stayed out of the discussion this round until some reactionary statements were made that I thought were inaccurate, were made about a subject I happen to have some experience. It simply isn't logical to ignore the cultural and public climate that the union operates in, and is frankly part of the problem. To dismiss the culpability the union has (small or large) for their role in the specific current situation is too simplistic. I disagree that they aren't responsible because by their actions and lack of proactive actions in other areas have contributed to the picture. It is much easier to play the victim and blame government but frankly does nothing to change the problem. No sense rehashing my statements further but to dismiss the examples given to illustrate comments, doesn't change their validity of them, nor the principles they were meant to demonstrate. I may not take the time to explain properly if I am multitasking, and assume people are up to speed with some things when they aren't. But I do know things could have been done differently, and should be done differently now.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 11, 2009 5:51:29 GMT -8
Both you guys denying you're a tag team, but I have to say, you sure do an excellent job of following each other over the top rope. Ref, I didn't see a legal tag there... There is a substantial, though admittedly subtle, difference between accusing someone in particular of willfully sowing a canard, and saying that something is a canard. My intent was the latter. It's probably pointless for us to broaden a specific discussion about the shipyard workers and their industry into a potpourri where all sorts of generalizations about everything from Hillary Clinton to some union head's salary get tossed. (My union president would probably be quite amused to hear how wealthy some people think he is.) Our shrunken shipyards, and the people they employ, aren't responsible for whatever opinions other people might have about the union movement in general. Okay, I'll accept that the choice of positioning of certain words in your comment may have lead me to infer a connotation that was not intended. Like NE, I kept my comments to myself until I saw some obvious inaccuracies in the statements made. The generalizations, or in the case of my comments, specific cases pointing out the exploits and follies of other unions, are important to understanding how the shipbuilding union compares to some of the others. This can then be used to point out the strengths and failings of specific union policies. It also allows us to offer suggestions for improvement and accolades for success. Warning, this is a generalization: I agree that the opinions of people towards unions was not formed based on the actions of the iron workers in Vancouver, however, the perpetuation of certain union policies including an apparent constant complaining about lack of concessions and consideration does little to help their cause. I think that people get upset when they hear the hourly wage union workers get...a few quick calculations and they come up with a yearly salary...but, and I know this is the case, these salary calculations are often grossly inflated as they don't take into account that many union workers spend significant periods of time laid off, and are not enjoying the "massive" salaries. Unfortunately, many workers are too often a victim of their own success at the negotiation table. But people don't see this; they see the 5% wage increase the union is getting even though the national unemployment rate looks like it will come close to doubling since last year. *warning, again, this is a generalization based on specific union agreements for several unions local to the northeastern USA and the trend for US unemployment rates given today's data * So public sentiment becomes biased against the unions, and the unions find themselves negotiating give-backs to protect their members jobs with no public support. And some whine and complain about how they are "forced" to give up benefits, and others make statements about the need to compromise to ensure maximum job stability in an uncertain market economy. A bit of the excessive verbosity but I wanted to layout the foundation for my point...which of the above approachs do you think is more productive for public relations? And, is a revised approach towards public relations advisable for the Vancouver Iron Workers local? Just a p.s. - I intentionally didn't read NE's comment before writing and posting mine. You will see there is similarity between our statements that is just an indication that we share a similar view on this particular aspect of union policies and politicking...no underlying conspiracy, just two people with common opinions.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 11, 2009 6:58:47 GMT -8
(As an aside, I have to throw in that the unions that work for WSF--save one--that banded together to be loud about giving up any financial considerations for the next budget biennium in their contracts was a brilliant piece of PR, the first I've ever seen my unions successfully do. Unions on the whole still think that strong-arm tactics left ver from the Calhoun & Lundberg days are going to find themselves on the short end of any deal. Unions should be able to outwit and outthink management.)
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Mar 11, 2009 11:27:39 GMT -8
(As an aside, I have to throw in that the unions that work for WSF--save one--that banded together to be loud about giving up any financial considerations for the next budget biennium in their contracts was a brilliant piece of PR, the first I've ever seen my unions successfully do. Unions on the whole still think that strong-arm tactics left ver from the Calhoun & Lundberg days are going to find themselves on the short end of any deal. Unions should be able to outwit and outthink management.) No doubt it was good p.r., given the prevailing dogma about unions being selfish, inflexible and rooted in the past. If it was part of a quid pro quo involving guarantees of no job losses, even better. If not, time will tell what the tangible benefit to employees is. Hopefully it works out. With 55 years of working in a union environment between my wife and me, I'll well aware of the compromises that unions are increasingly called on to make. I went back over this entire thread, just checking out the basis for the ongoing claim that the shipyard workers have been intransigent, or 'culpable', and have not contributed enough to the betterment of their industry. Wasn't able to find a lot. There were a couple of good suggestions from forum members about improving training. There was a suggestion that the workers take a pay cut. A number of mentions of whining and complaining. So, to check out the whining and complaining, I went to the Shipyards Workers General Federation site, and looked at their press releases over the years. I saw what appeared to me to be a pretty long, consistent body of decently articulate, well formulated arguments as to why building ships in BC with BC workers was a good idea. There was a presentation to the House of Commons, again, well presented, arguing against BC Ferries being forgiven import duty on foreign builds. There was a tour, conducted by the union, of Vancouver Shipyard, and Allied Shipyard, to show provincial politicians how we can indeed build boats here. There was a press release criticizing WMG for not consulting with the union on how a successful bid for what became the NorEx could have been made, after WMG chose not to even try. Of course, there were no specific proposals for contract adjustments with the employer that might make local bids for contracts more viable. That's the sort of thing that is done in confidential negotiation, but aside from whatever biases people might have about unions, we have no basis for declaring that the workers have indeed not made compromises, and not been accommodating. What we have seen is a decided lack of vigour on the part of WMG to go after contracts, particularly, the NorEx, which may be due in part to BC Ferries structuring the parameters of the contracts to favor foreign bidders.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Oct 20, 2009 2:42:48 GMT -8
marinelink.com/en-US/News/Article/332203.aspx Canadian Shipbuilders Predict Busy TimesAccording to an Oct. 16 report from The Victoria Times Colonist, Canadian unions are pressing a case with federal officials to split contracts three ways between the West Coast, the Maritimes and Quebec. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military and Canadian Coast Guard work has been announced in recent years. (Source: The Victoria Times Colonist) www.timescolonist.com/Outlook+2010+Shipbuilders+predict+busy+times+ahead/2114611/story.html Shipbuilders predict busy times aheadAlthough work has slowed at Victoria Shipyards in Esquimalt, officials say steamy days are ahead. The ups and downs of shipbuilding and repair are not new to the industry, which has played a historical role in Greater Victoria's development. "This is not a good time for us," said Rick Spencer, business manager for Local 1204 of Laborer's International Union of North America, Dock and Shipyard Workers Union. Of the 200 members in the local, only about 40 are working at the moment. Members have mortgages and bills to pay, Spencer said, adding "they just can't wait" and often start looking for outside work. Like Victoria Shipyards management, other industry players and unions, Spencer is looking to the future to bolster the west coast's competitiveness. Federal government contracts worth dizzying amounts of money are a mainstay of the industry. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military and Canadian Coast Guard work has been announced in recent years. Major contracts can run for several years, creating stability for businesses, employees and the broader community. But the work can be spotty with dry periods between contracts. Spencer said unions are pressing a case with federal officials to split contracts three ways between the West Coast, the Maritimes and Quebec. In the West Coast's favour, the federally owned Esquimalt Graving Dock, used by private industry, is the largest solid-bottom commercial drydock on the west coast of the Americas. It is able to accommodate about 90 per cent of the world's ships, a federal statement said. Spencer is urging companies and workers to band together to seek work with the public and private sectors, saying "we know we can build the big stuff." He added his voice to the ongoing push by shipbuilders to see B.C. Ferries vessels built in the province. The last batch of vessels was built in Germany last year. Malcolm Barker, Victoria Shipyards manager, was in Ottawa in July for a meeting on Canada's shipbuilding industry. He said the West Coast intends to play a major role and be a centre of excellence for Canadian shipbuilding, but is keeping details of a plan given to the federal government confidential. "The West Coast is geographically and strategically located" to support the Department of National Defence and to serve other vessels on the Pacific coast, Barker said. "We are into a bit of a short-time downturn right now," he said. "But in essence the future looks extremely good. We already have major programs on the books, signed, sealed and delivered with the government of Canada." Work steps up next year on a $351-million contract, running over several years, to upgrade five Halifax-Class frigates based at CFB Esquimalt. The cruise-ship industry has been a benefit recently, as refits can employ more than 300 workers at once. But work on the big cruising vessels hasn't been a steady source of work.
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