Horseshoe Bay Terminal

[BrianWilliams]

Oak Bay's grounding has fired up the HB debate. Are there too many large vessels docking at HB?

Is growing ferry traffic congesting the Upper Levels Hwy to a dangerous point?

Does the village of HB deserve some relief, before it disappears under parking lots and ramps?

Of course, I have my opinion...

I'd like to keep the Nanaimo service, but eliminate all heavy commercial traffic to DP except scheduled buses (no more tour bus loads). Changes at HB will affect DP, of course. Though that terminal has more potential room than HB, Nanaimo's Stewart Ave is also a steamy parking lot on summer afternoons.

I hope for more frequent Langdale trips someday, as demand warrants. Limiting Nanaimo traffic will make that easier.

[Koastal Karl]

Just get rid of the Naniamo run out Horseshoe Bay! Well actually no cause where else would that route go from? But I thought that is what the mid island express was for all the heavy buses and truck loads! Why do they continue to go through Horseshoe Bay??

[BrianWilliams]

"...all the heavy buses and truck loads! Why do they continue to go through Horseshoe Bay??"

Right. I don't know. I thought that was to be eliminated back in the mid-1990's.

My own evidence is sketchy, but I can tell you: on three carless trips in May and June 2005, I rode in the dog pen on Deck 2, Coq and Cow. The centre lanes were packed with heavy trucks and tour buses, in both directions.

There is a good exception that I'd agree with. Live shellfish from north and mid-island depend on speedy transport with minimum highway time. I'd give these guys a pass.

But, as I saw: Gravel trucks? Lumber? Hardly perishable commodities. Get out of HB<->DP, I say. We built Duke Point for you.

The Korean and Chinese tour buses, too. It is convenient for operators of whirlwind Whistler-Robson Street-Butchart Gardens tours to route through HB, but they should use Tsawwassen. We have made Tsawwassen more welcoming for tourists with the expanded Marketplace.

There is f*all at HB while waiting. On the BCF property, just a few pop machines.

[Curtis]

I was thinking about what a witness said on the news about Horseshoe Bay not being big enough for the Nanaimo ferry than I thought of the new Terminal than I thought Stanley Park Ferry Terminal lol but maybe every two months they should bring a crew on to have a type of safety check and check anything that looks out of place or maybe they should have emergency jet engines that initiate when something goes wrong such as the Oak Bay accident these ideas might be done already but maybe more smaller ships is the answer but demand is up so that wouldn't work who knows maybe more land is the answer so it's more out in the bay and there's money to think about in this maybe even bumpers for possibly being initiated when it occurs to the crew when a ferry is going to crash

[BrianWilliams]

Oak Bay's grounding is not the real issue at HB, though it has revived the argument.

The big deal is traffic. BCF can run almost hourly large ship movements in the cove safely, with Cap skittering like a waterbug between them. (Some bug, she's bigger than the ferries most non-BCers will ever ride).

HB's marshalling area can't get any larger without bulldozing the village. About 20% of HB's little valley is pay parking -which I use gratefully. Still, the ferry lines back up 8 km of the Trans Canada Highway on busy days.

[Political Incorrectness]

cascade said:

I must agree - t

So I ask the question - why not change the way they load cars - to say the European way - which in turn open up's the market for other Ferry Companies - which in turn will offer a better service and cheaper prices ? The terminal designs would also be cheaper to build - as they are a lot simpler.

the Euopean way is roll on roll off isn't it? so then what would make the difference?

[NMcKay]

the ramps

[Low Light Mike]

Please save me some research time here, and enlighten me more on the European way of loading cars.

If it has to do with the ramps, then how are Euro Ferries different? Is the ramp attached to the ship (like the K-class in the QueenCharlotte Islands)?


Is this like a VHS vs. Beta difference ? Or like a PAL vs SECAN difference? To use video tape comparisons to different systems in different parts of the world

[Political Incorrectness]

ok some European ferries have their own ramps some don't.

[NMcKay]

that seems like a much more complicated way of doing it. those internal ramps can always fail.

[Political Incorrectness]

cascade said:

Would be very interesting to see how fast a BC Ferries vessel can load say 500 cars and an European Ferry.

aren't those the same thing?

[YZFNick]

There's no way a single door vessel could have the quick turnaround that our ships have. My estimation is that a single door 300 car ship would add an extra 20 minutes in each direction due to extra time unloading and loading.

Two ships (one based in each port) would have the following shedule:
Ships would leave each port at 0630, 0850, 1110, 1330, 1550, 1810, 2030, and 2250. There would be the same amount of sailings, but a 2250 sailing would be almost empty (almost two hours after the current last sailing of the day). Due to the awkward schedule (especially during rush hours), they would cost much more to operate in terms of staffing. The 2250 sailing is necessary to return the ship to its home port. If you eliminate the last two sailings of the day, the 2030 and 2250, the last sailing would leave at 1810 from each side. That cannot do because that ship would be a guaranteed overload every day. A third and possibly fourth ship would be needed which would only increase traffic.

What happened to an Iona Island Terminal? Iona Island is just north of Sea Island (Vancouver Airport).

[hergfest]

What cascade is trying to say, I think, is that BC Ferries are at a disadvantage when trying to sell their boats due to the loading system of two decks. While much faster to load/unload, they are the only system that uses this method of loading so resale on the ships is much lower. And add the fact that the fleet is so much older.

[BrianWilliams]

If BC Ferries' has a ro-ro (Roll On-Roll Off) problem, it is due to the variety of traffic that BCF handles.

Most Mainline ferries have three car decks. Decks 2 and 4 are loaded smoothly, with excess "underheights" directed onto Deck 3.

BCF traffic managers direct heavy trucks and tour busses onto Deck 2, close to the central trunk.

BC Ferries' loading procedure is the safest in the world, I think.

[Doug]

Increase both

[NMcKay]

Cascades got a point. only so much truck traffica ncan be handeled by CPR....i think that midnight truck only Routes would make for an easier ride

[YZFNick]

How a ship doing two midnight round trips from Duke Point, the first one to Tsawassen, and the next one to Horseshoe Bay?

[hergfest]

So run the Alberni 24 hours?

[YZFNick]

Sure, that would add truck capacity. As well as doing this you eliminate truck service out of Departure Bay. This would free up capacity for cars with the existing vessels on route 2.

[Ian]

During a normal day wthout ferries in refit the extra vessel (queen of oak bay) and Queen of Esquimalt hardely do anything. Make more Sailings,
ex. instead of 1o'clock 2 3 4 5 6 etc.
have 1 130 2 230 3 330 4 430 5 530 6

And only do this when it needs to be done, rush hour sailings, currently arn't enough. Who cares if trucks go on this route, it's a highway, they can go whereever they like, some drivers do not life going through the city or maybe they are ferry fenatics and really like the c-class and breakfast bunwich on the queen of coquitlam.

[Balfour]

It also depends on where the truckers are coming from. If the are coming from the USA, then they will take route 30, if they're coming from the interior or any other part of Canada, they might take route 2, because it is most convenient for them.

[BrianWilliams]

I understand the truckers' position; but BCF pledged 10 years ago to reduce the ferries' impact on HB.

A fairly easy way of slowing traffic growth at HB is to eliminate long-haul Vancouver Island truck traffic to/from Horseshoe Bay.

The mainland approach to HB has a pretty scary 8% grade. You all have seen the brake check pulloff at the nose of Eagle Bluff.

There will always be trucks on the Upper Levels Highway, but I argue that BCF truck traffic to Langdale should be the only heavy vehicles at HB.

I don't live in W Vancouver, but 40 km away in New Westminster. Even so, W Van is a pleasant town with wilderness trails, parks and tiny coves that amaze us, so close to a huge metro city.

Let's not bury HB under a bigger ferry terminal. And let's build the new Hwy 99 in a an Eagle Bluffs tunnel. Generations to come will thank us.

[BrianWilliams]

to Nick:

" What happened to an Iona Island Terminal? Iona Island is just north of Sea Island (Vancouver Airport). "

Iona was a good idea in the early 1970's. It was nearly built, favoured by both Socred and NDP gov'ts ... but it was smashed flat by the expansion of YVR.

Today, Iona would be a traffic nightmare. Adding more berths at Tsawwassen is my current fave; or reviving the 1920s Great Northern RR slip at Port Guichon (west of Ladner).

[NMcKay]

What about a terminal Right in vancouver? up by the Second Narrows or something.

[BrianWilliams]

"What about a terminal right in Vancouver?"

That's where Harbourlynx shines. Being a lighter, faster-accelerating ship, HL can beat the BCF crossing times, though covering more distance.

A large vehicle ferry can't do that. A C-class would trudge thru Burrard Inlet at 8-10 knots, not getting to full speed until off Dundarave. That would probably add a full hour to the Nanaimo trip, for a 2:40 crossing time.

The added fuel cost for the harbour portion is frightening to consider, too.

I love BC Ferries, and I don't want to rob BCF of revenue. But I would like to see increased use of private barge, railcar and truck ferry services for heavy traffic. Carrier Princess is one good example.