Horseshoe Bay Terminal

[CN2972South]

cascade said:

Dan,

What type of volume can SeaSpan take ? I don't think they could handle anything like what is talked about here. A few barges....

The thing with RO/RO rail - is the speed of getting from one place to another - point to point and rail can do that - BUT it does need the links - across the water.

Also factor in the end results - where is the cargo to go to?

I remember this been talked about in the early 80's before the Vancouver Island rail was sold to American company. There was a total lack of investment in it - on the passenger line section. Federal government at that time did not want to fund it - plus strong union problems on the Island.

Maybe Brian can shed some light on it...

In 2001 there were 3 trips a day between Nanaimo and Tilbury for rail. Seaspan CAN handle the rail traffic. There was a time when Seaspan was serving both the E&N and CN(now the Galloping Goose) on Vancouver Island. The links are already there, Seaspan and Coastal Intermodal terminal at Tilbury Island has rail connection to CP, CN and BNSF.


There will still be enough truck traffic to and from the island to keep truckers happy.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the VIA Rail passenger train as it runs irregardless of the amount of freight traffic on the E&N.

[Mac Write]

Why not do double decker truck ferries. start of with 4 of them on 2 routes and that could really reduce traffic. Now where to put it. ferries dedicated to just trucks, wouldn't that help? Cater to the truckers and make them very happy. All birth 3 and four need are straight upper ramps then they could handle trucks to the top level at TSA.

[hergfest]

Double decker truck ferries would be cost prohibitive, besides they tried the "truck only" experiment with the Alberni and they ended up lifting her for more car capacity. And modifiying the terminals for one boat is insane. All they need to do is add another boat on the Route 30 and it would alleviate a lot of truck traffic, but they don't have the boats until the Super C's get here. I don't think that will happen though, Route 30 usually is only busy on holiday weekends.

[Retrovision]

hergfest,
True, according to the Bannermans' book "The Ships of British Columbia...", the reason that the Alberni was lifted was because "...she lacked versatility."

It goes on to say that "It had been hoped that the renovated Queen of Alberni would serve the Sunshine Coast..." But if Hodgson had simply waited a single year, he would have found that "midway through 1985, a renewed economy brought inpredicted demand for additional tractor-trailer capacity between Nanaimo and the mainland, reducing the need for her extra car deck."

So, if BCFC had waited a year, they wouldnt' have lifted the Alberni, and BCFerries would currently have (and would have already had use of for two decades) a dedicated truck ferry.

Also consider that if the Alberni was available as a dedicated truck ferry for the renewed economy that 1985 brought, her success might have ushered in a whole new fleet of dedicated truck ferries, BCFC might well have taken Seaspan's place, and we might not have the dilema of what to do with truck traffic through Horseshoe Bay today.

[Retrovision]

On another note, I asked my mom (a member of YVR's board of directors) about the idea of building a new terminal on Iona Island, and her answer to me was simple:

"By 2025, even with the RAV (the new rapid transit line), YVR will be over-capacity (in terms of vehicle traffic)."

So unless there's a bridge approach to Iona Island built that doesn't go anywhere near the airport (maybe from the old Eburne Mill site, just west of the Arthur Lang bridge, to the north shore of Sea Island, and then to Iona Island), there will be no terminal built on Iona Island.

In fact, scratch that last statement. There will be no terminal built on Iona Island (unless the bridge is built directly from Vancouver, skipping Sea Island all together) because the airport will need every square metre of Sea Island for multiple new runways planned to be built over the next century.

[BrianWilliams]

" ... the airport will need every square metre of Sea Island for multiple new runways planned to be built over the next century. "

Thanks for that extra insight, which I know is correct.

After YVR's big expansion on the late 1970's, I knew that any hope of an an Iona ferry terminal was toast.

Nearly 30 years later, YVR is Canada's second gateway to the world, rivalling Toronto. So it should be, and I am glad that someone did not stuff a BCF terminal into YVR's back yard.

[BrianWilliams]

To Tyler, aka ENR:

Please tell us more about rail freight operations on the Island.

I was mightily annoyed by the multi-billion-dollar construction of Hwy 19, while E&N was sold to RailAmerica; then lost its major customers; and weeds grew on the right-of-way.

I am a railfan, but I'm also a realist. A balanced transportation system uses all modes efficiently.

Public highways are darn near a 100% subsidy to freight haulers. I appreciate the need for speedy, safe public roads, but I think E&N's line should have been improved as a parallel public resource while we were building the new highway.

Please, can you tell us what's up with E&N today?

[hergfest]

You also have to remember that the Alberni didn't lose any truck capacity when she was lifted, she gained car capacity. The bottom deck is still deticated to trucks and I doubt the footprint of the bottom deck was changed when she was lifted.

[Retrovision]

"You also have to remember that the Alberni didn't lose any truck capacity when she was lifted, she gained car capacity. The bottom deck is still deticated to trucks and I doubt the footprint of the bottom deck was changed when she was lifted."

As far as I've read, prior to 1984/lifting, BCFC only allowed trucks on the Alberni (I'm far from an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong). The point that I was trying to make was that if the demand for a dedicated truck ferry had gone up before the Alberni's lifting, BCFC might have seen the potential for not only the Alberni staying dedicated to trucks, but quite possibly new ships to be built for the sole purpose of carrying trucks. For all I know, if that was the course of events, BCFC might have gotten enough of a head start to become as major a player as Seaspan is today in the coastal trailer shipping industry.

Just as YVR foresaw problems of traffic conjestion way back in the '70s, BCFC, especially considering the geographic constraints of Horseshoe Bay and the Upper Levels Highway, must have long ago foreseen the conjestion problems that we're running into today.

[BrianWilliams]

"...BCFC, especially considering the geographic constraints of Horseshoe Bay and the Upper Levels Highway, must have long ago foreseen the congestion problems that we're running into today..."

No kidding. From the 1967 book "Dogwood Fleet"

:

"...terminal facilities will require expansion. It certainly looks as though crowded Horseshoe Bay will only be able to serve the Sunshine Coast, and the Nanaimo ships will have to berth elsewhere."

38 years ago!

[CN2972South]

brianwilliams said:

To Tyler, aka ENR:

Please tell us more about rail freight operations on the Island.

I was mightily annoyed by the multi-billion-dollar construction of Hwy 19, while E&N was sold to RailAmerica; then lost its major customers; and weeds grew on the right-of-way.

I am a railfan, but I'm also a realist. A balanced transportation system uses all modes efficiently.

Public highways are darn near a 100% subsidy to freight haulers. I appreciate the need for speedy, safe public roads, but I think E&N's line should have been improved as a parallel public resource while we were building the new highway.

Please, can you tell us what's up with E&N today?

HI Brian, sorry for not responding sooner but I've been camping since Firday. The E&N currently hauls about 2000 cars of freight a year and about 40000-50000 passengers a year. Most of the freight moved on the E&N is propane, grain, haz-mat, minerals, chemicals, and plastics. In fact, if you buy Superior Propane on the island it was hauled to their distribution centre by the E&N.

Currently the Island Corridor Foundation has taken over the parts of the E&N owned by CP and are still negotiating with RailAmerica to aquire their portions of the E&N. The ICF has apparently a list of 25 companies that want to ship by rail, they also have 2 companies bidding on the operator's contract.

[BrianWilliams]

To Cascade:

Pardon the unresearched answer, but there is a major railcar barge terminal at Tilbury (Delta, BC near Ladner) reached by BNSF / CN. Seaspan runs from there to Chemainus, I think. There is another railcar terminal in south Nanaimo harbour by Harmac / Duke Point, and the old CPR slip near downtown Nanimo is still active, I think.

All these sevices are intermodal, so they can handle railcars, COFC and trailers. Any load, any mode.

Tyler:

Maybe you can clarify this?

[CN2972South]

brianwilliams said:

To Cascade:

Pardon the unresearched answer, but there is a major railcar barge terminal at Tilbury (Delta, BC near Ladner) reached by BNSF / CN. Seaspan runs from there to Chemainus, I think. There is another railcar terminal in south Nanaimo harbour by Harmac / Duke Point, and the old CPR slip near downtown Nanimo is still active, I think.

All these sevices are intermodal, so they can handle railcars, COFC and trailers. Any load, any mode.

Tyler:

Maybe you can clarify this?

Yes, the E&N's connection to the mainland is via barge from Wellcox(downtown Nanaimo) to Tilbury Island.

[CN2972South]

cascade said:

Brian,


Ship by rail then forward on by truck also sounds good in theory - but in practical terms - does it work?
When I lived on the Island - there was very little moved by rail - most of it was "raw" lumber and that was between Mills. Also a lot of "boxcars" - with paper in them.

It is good having the outlets - so why don't more people use them? I know & understand that moving by trucks is more personal and faster - direct.

Shipping by rail would entail hauling the goods right to the customer (which is why the E&N is going after the industries along the right-of-way), not transferring to truck. As this is done already in Vancouver.

I'm not sure when you lived on the island, but the E&N has always, until recently moved upwards of 9000 carloads a year. Those trains to Port Alberni were huge! Averaging 40 cars for most trips. Victoria freights were still fair-sized with up to 10 cars, and there were still regular freights to Courtenay. The E&N was a busy little railway even into the late 1990's.

[YZFNick]

It's a shame the rail doesn't go up to Campbell River. CR is an industrial city and could use a rail link to the rest of the island. Most of the goods (paper, wood) and raw material (coal, logs) is transported by tug and barge or in some cases truck. I'm sure some companies stick trailers or containers on a barge if it has the space and skips Horseshoe Bay all together.

There is another railway on the Island. There is a line from Woss Camp to a log sort on Johnston Strait. As far as I know it's still active and there is a locomotive up there too. A rail bridge goes right over highway 19.

[CN2972South]

cascade said:

OK - so if there is possible increase in traffic - via a rail network - then why don't more companies on the Island use it - or is it running at full cap?

It's hard for those industries that want to ship by rail, to ship by rail if the railway is telling them, "F*** off, we don't want your business" which is what RailAmerica is doing. The E&N could be moving at least 10000 carloads of freight a year if they actually cared about customer service and marketting; instead of the 2000 that they move now.

[Quinsam]

WHere exactly is that other railway?

[Low Light Mike]

Harry: "There is a line from Woss Camp to a log sort on Johnston Strait "

Check your map, see northern Vancouver Island, on Hwy 19, north of Sayward....you will find Woss.

Then look to the east, and see Johnston(e) strait....likely at Beaver Cove, south of Port McNeil

[YZFNick]

From Paul Keenlyside's page (from the Yahoo board) modena.intergate.ca/personal/pl8s/BC19/Hwy_19N_D.htm


Quote

A pair of Canadian Forest Products locomotives cross the highway. The Canadian Forest Products Englewood Divsion has the only logging railway operation remaining on Vancouver Island. The operation has been in existence since the early 1900's, and carries logs from the Woss and Vernon facilities - south of Woss - north to Beaver Cove. The railway will cross the highway several times.

[YZFNick]

www.trainweb.org/rosters/CANFOR.html

[Ferryman]

I went on that train back in either 95or 96 at Woss Lake. The Steam Engine was supposed to be running, but it had broken down so one of those yellow engines pulled the passenger tour train. I have that trip on video somewhere..

[BrianWilliams]

I have seen the Canfor operation between Woss and Beaver Cove (my pics later, I hope); but it's not relevant to general freight on Vancouver Island.

Live animal transport is not an issue today, either. Cattle, lambs and chickens are raised on VI, killed and dressed there, and sent to mainland markets in reefer trucks.

Bulky goods are the big earner for railroads. Pulp, paper and lumber are the Island's highest-volume products. None of these should have to move by highway.

E&N's backhauls also used to include dangerous commodities to the mills: anhydrous ammonia, sulphates and acids. The quantities are enormous.

None of these should be in truck convoys on our public highways, but RailAmerica's reluctance to actually run the RR has made it so.

[BrianWilliams]

I'll answer Cascade in a moment, but did promise some pictures of Canfor's RR.

These few are all at Woss in July 2004. The rail operations were shut down for the entire year, an employee told us, "...for maintenance, high fire hazard, and low traffic demand..."

Canfor's big power: a 1959 SW1200 --



From the old days: Alco 2-8-2 #113 with one of her crew coaches:



Smaller logging crews these days ride in this diesel crummy, towing a flatcar with their gear and fire equipment:



In these too-quiet times, weeds grow deep in Woss yard:

[kylefossett]

the pulp mill at crofton has a railway system in and around it. they still receive rail cars from the mainland a couple times a week on a seaspan rail barge. also seaspan seems to be pretty full with trailers the last couple of times i have been at swartz bay and saw the carrier princess there.

[BrianWilliams]

Cascade said:

"They [the RR, I assume] seem to be capping the market in the growth of small business on the Island - real shame - so what is the government doing about it ? -- They can ship via containers - so good for large size business - no good for the small man. "

There's no easy answer. LCL (less-than-carload) freight is extinct on N American RRs, and E&N is no exception. LCL business is best handled by hiway trucks.

Today's railroads excel in carrying bulky merchandise over long uninterrupted hauls. Single-shipper to single-receiver loads are the RRs main revenue. 150-car trains of coal from Montana to an Ohio power plant is one example; dispatched every four hours, it's like a conveyor belt from mine to furnace.

That's the cheap ton-mile example. Through heavy investment, the surviving long-haul RRs in USA and Canada are also providing transcontinental container service that beats hiway time. And the per-train equivalent of 200 hiway trucks are handled by a three-man crew on a private right-of-way that PAYS taxes, rather than absorbing them.

Vancouver Island is a special, but hopeful case. E&N's only possible salvation is recapturing the pulp, paper and lumber loads outbound for export; and the inbound supplies for the mills.