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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 19, 2007 20:27:56 GMT -8
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 20, 2007 6:38:53 GMT -8
First sensible suggestion I've seen in the whole boondoggle.
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Kam
Voyager
Posts: 926
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Post by Kam on Apr 20, 2007 8:55:24 GMT -8
Well, if they want fast track, just give Flensburger a call! I'm sure that will go over well! ;D
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Post by chokai on Apr 20, 2007 11:14:15 GMT -8
It's kind of a shame though that it came to this. It really proves that if you throw enough lawyers at the state and complain enough you'll get what you want. Todd wasn't near as bad as Martinac in that regard but still they left something to be desired. And the tax payers get the shaft...
Some type of joint-venture might not be a bad idea though. It has certainly seemed to work for the DOT with the new Narrows Bridge overall.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Apr 20, 2007 13:46:58 GMT -8
Now if only we could get rid of the part in the Jones Act that vessels built foreignly are the only ones that cannot go from one port to another and back to the same wtihout stopping at an international destination. B.C. might like our buisness
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Apr 20, 2007 16:30:01 GMT -8
It's about time that there is a press for dual shipyard cooperation on the new ferries. I like the design WSF has (great viewing areas at the ends (both inside and out) and a Sun Deck. Let's see the Junior Mark II's built!
The idea of having Z-Drives on the Keystone run was a bad idea at the start. Normally, you see these at the corners on the sides. You would see an astronomical amount of mechanical breakdowns. One ever slight off-coursing on entry and exit in Keystone harbor and the drive will hit bottom. Centerline propellers and rudders are best for this run.
I'd like to see Nichols Brothers, Todd, and the Tacoma yard work together in the module building and final assembly of these ferries.
MV QUILLAYUTE II (San Juans), MV CHETZEMOKA II (Clinton) , MV KULSHAN II (Clinton), and MV ENETAI II (Bremerton), hope to see you all soon!
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Post by Northern Exploration on Apr 20, 2007 17:08:08 GMT -8
The precedent is with the submarine USS Virginia and the follow on submarines. Electric Boat and Newport News cooperated on building them - two very big rivals. The both had different expertise. The result is a submarine built in record time for much less cost than the Seawolf and with much more flexibility in missions. They were built modularly similarly to the Coastals are. I am a shop at home kind of guy and believe in supporting homegrown talent and businesses. I am not a Walmart kind of guy - mo offense intended to those who are. However, as a businessman the Flensburger operation has impressed me a lot. As I said in another thread, I hope this is serving as a wake up to our own respective North American companies and in particular the marine industries.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 20, 2007 17:16:39 GMT -8
The idea of having Z-Drives on the Keystone run was a bad idea at the start. Normally, you see these at the corners on the sides. You would see an astronomical amount of mechanical breakdowns. One ever slight off-coursing on entry and exit in Keystone harbor and the drive will hit bottom. Centerline propellers and rudders are best for this run. The 130-car model that Martinac had has the movable propeller on the centerline (see this news story).
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Apr 20, 2007 18:26:39 GMT -8
The idea of having Z-Drives on the Keystone run was a bad idea at the start. Normally, you see these at the corners on the sides. You would see an astronomical amount of mechanical breakdowns. One ever slight off-coursing on entry and exit in Keystone harbor and the drive will hit bottom. Centerline propellers and rudders are best for this run. The 130-car model that Martinac had has the movable propeller on the centerline (see this news story). Oops! I stand corrected. I had thought all along that these are usually at the corners, like what we see on some BCF vessels. Didn't look at the Tacoma model close enough.
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 21, 2007 20:55:49 GMT -8
Never mind that the Martinac model won't fit into any dock with a passenger ramp, and visibility will be horrible from the pilothouse...
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Post by EGfleet on May 18, 2007 5:43:45 GMT -8
More on this issue...note which boats they're talking about getting rid of now...
Builders May Team to Build New Ferries
Lawmakers hope a bill signed by the governor will solve a disagreement that has stalled progress on four new vessels. By Ed Friedrich, efriedrich@kitsapsun.com May 18, 2007
Three Washington shipbuilders have one month to figure out how to cooperatively build four new 144-car ferries.
The countdown began Tuesday after Gov. Christine Gregoire signed a bill that allows Todd Pacific Shipyards of Seattle, J.M. Martinac Shipbuilding of Tacoma and Nichols Brothers Boat Builders of Whidbey Island to work together.
The legislation encourages them to patch up differences with one another and with the state, and launch a boat by 2009.
Since lawmakers approved four new ferries in 2001, the process has stalled. The state awarded a contract to Todd Pacific Shipyards in 2005, but Martinac protested, arguing that it had been illegally bumped from the competition. A judge agreed and the deal was scrapped. That was just one of many lawsuits, protests and complaints that stymied construction.
Representatives from the companies met Tuesday at the Washington State Ferries headquarters in Seattle. Rep. Larry Seaquist, D-Gig Harbor, was there. He and Rep. Dennis Flannigan, D-Tacoma, had spoken earlier with the three shipbuilders and determined they’d be willing to work together. That gave rise to the bill.
"They all recognize we need to find a way to get out of the courts and into the ferries," said Seaquist, a former Navy captain.
It also made sense to the shipbuilders because they use the same labor pool, said Mike Anderson, Washington State Ferries director.
If the three can’t come to terms, the process would return to competitive bidding between Todd Pacific and Martinac. If one of them falls out of the running, however, the new law would enable the state to make a deal with the other one.
What they’ll be building, if they get to that point, are medium-sized ferries similar to the Issaquah-class boats. The system has six of them, which can carry 124 cars and 1,200 people. The new ferries would be a stretched version. They would also have one passenger deck with capacity for 1,500 people. To get an extra 20 cars on board, they’d be lengthened slightly and widened to fit three lanes of freight trucks down the middle.
The new style could add capacity while keeping costs, such as labor and fuel, about the same, Anderson said.
The Bremerton-Seattle route could get one of the four new ferries, said WSF planning director Ray Deardorf. Two are projected to go to Clinton-Mukilteo and one to the San Juan Islands, he said. Those routes’ boats, mostly 124-car Issaquahs, could trickle down to the Southworth-Vashon-Fauntleroy route, which has two 87-car boats that are pushing 50 years old.
The new boats could also replace the 40-year-old Super Class of ferries, which also can carry 144 cars, but 2,500 passengers because they have a second deck.
The ferry system originally planned for the new ferries to carry 133 cars and to replace four Steel Electrics, which were built in 1927 and have room for just 64 vehicles. One would have gone to the Port Townsend-Keystone route, where both terminals would have been enlarged. The communities balked, claiming bigger boats and terminals weren’t a good fit, so they’ve gone back to the drawing board.
The ferry system had already bought propulsion systems for 133-car boats with a federal grant, so the new boats will have to be designed to be powered by them.
"We have to solve this," Seaquist said of the holdup. "This is our highway. Forty percent of Kitsap workers go across there."
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Post by SS Shasta on Jun 16, 2007 10:57:21 GMT -8
Hmmm. I wonder how this will impact construction costs?
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 16, 2007 11:02:10 GMT -8
*hits forehead with hand* Talk about a stinky decision, does anyone know what the propulsion systems are like? If they can't get the horsepower, then I think the system is going to get screwed over.
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Post by hergfest on Jun 16, 2007 11:52:15 GMT -8
The propulsion system contact was signed two or three years ago, so they are stuck with those. This was the main reason WSF couldn't use the Martinac design.
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Post by Barnacle on Jun 16, 2007 13:58:34 GMT -8
'Stuck' implies that the low bid was a worse choice than the big whoop-de-doo affairs Martinac was proposing. I think we're better off going with something that the fleet already is familiar with operating. (Mind you, I wanted diesel-electric, but...)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2007 15:57:05 GMT -8
I read on the Komo4 Seattle web site a few days ago, www.komotv.com/news/local/8034107.html3 Companies are forming a consortium to put in a bid to build 4 new WS Ferries. The companies are Todd, Martinac, and Nichols Brothers.
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Post by old_wsf_fan on Jun 18, 2007 19:01:11 GMT -8
If the yards were competing against each other for the exclusive contract, is the work for the two yards considered to be the subs, going to be enough to generate a sizeable profit?
It has been reported that Todd's will be the contractor and that Nichol's and Martinac will be the subs.
Even with four boats being built, I don't see enough profit in it for the two subs. Just my opinion.
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Post by Barnacle on Jun 19, 2007 9:53:19 GMT -8
What constitutes 'enough profit'? The obscene 23% or whatever it was that MP&E made on the Issaquah-class vessels? The normal profit margin would be considerably lower...
...at any rate, if the consortium can't write their bid in such a way as to include sufficient profit margin for themselves, then they deserve what they get.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Jul 3, 2007 13:11:17 GMT -8
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Post by EGfleet on Jul 3, 2007 13:44:42 GMT -8
Woo hoo! Now lets get to building! We needed those boats three years ago...
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 3, 2007 14:10:20 GMT -8
Hopefully they have people ready to work their tails off day and night.
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Post by BreannaF on Jul 3, 2007 15:02:14 GMT -8
Yes, we need them quickly.........
On the other hand, here's to hoping they get them done right!
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 3, 2007 15:07:52 GMT -8
Very true, they need to be done quickly and done without problems unlike the Issaquahs *cough*
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Post by hergfest on Jul 4, 2007 10:38:52 GMT -8
So now that the new boats are finally going to be built, what boats are going to be retired? Will the Hyak stick around? My money is on the Quinault, Klickitat, Rhody, and Evergreen.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 4, 2007 10:44:13 GMT -8
Barnacle is going to be on your bad side for that. All my dough is on the Quinalt, Ilahee, Nisqually, and the Rhody. The Hyak will probably have to stay around.
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