MV Hyak

[Steve Rosenow]

Comparing apples to oranges.

The loss of the Hyak right now, would be disastrous even with two Oly-class ferries coming online.

In short, it is a bad idea to cut the Hyak loose.

[SolDuc]

Feb 4, 2013 18:40:52 GMT -8 Steve Rosenow said:

Comparing apples to oranges.

The loss of the Hyak right now, would be disastrous even with two Oly-class ferries coming online.

In short, it is a bad idea to cut the Hyak loose.

Agree with this, but I think that the plan that Cheese had was to retire the Hyak along with the other supers around 2027-2030.
Will have to find a new favorite ferry by then, Steve!

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2013 18:52:06 GMT -8 SolDuc said:

Feb 4, 2013 18:40:52 GMT -8 Steve Rosenow said:

Comparing apples to oranges.

The loss of the Hyak right now, would be disastrous even with two Oly-class ferries coming online.

In short, it is a bad idea to cut the Hyak loose.

Agree with this, but I think that the plan that Cheese had was to retire the Hyak along with the other supers around 2027-2030.
Will have to find a new favorite ferry by then, Steve!

That is the plan that I was thinking of. But getting rid of the Hyak when the first two Olympic Class comes on line could work by a signing the Elwha and the Samish all year in the San Jaun Island, the Kaleetan comes up to the Island during the summer months. The Bremerton route would have the Kaleetan and Yakima for the fall, winter, spring months. The Bremerton route could have for the summer month, spring break, Christmas break the Walla Walla and Yakima.
  

[SolDuc]

Feb 4, 2013 19:07:51 GMT -8 @cheese12345678 said:

Feb 4, 2013 18:52:06 GMT -8 SolDuc said:

Agree with this, but I think that the plan that Cheese had was to retire the Hyak along with the other supers around 2027-2030.
Will have to find a new favorite ferry by then, Steve!

That is the plan that I was thinking of. But getting rid of the Hyak when the first two Olympic Class come on line could work by a signing the Yakima and the Samish all year in the San Jaun Island, the Kaleetan coming up to the Island during the summer, the Chelan on the Sidney route spring, summer, fall. Bremerton could have the Kaleetan and Elwha for the fall, winter, spring. The Bremerton route could have for the summer, spring break, Christmas break the Walla Walla and Elwha. 
  

1. Not that easy to understand.
2. Fyi, the Walla Walla is found at Bremerton during more than half of the year, and two supers are enough for winter break.
3. Putting the Elwha at Bremerton would not be a smart move, as it does not have one important characteristic of the other supers: the low wake which permits it to travel through Rich Passage at full speed, thus allowing for a faster commute.

[rusty]

...and don't forget that the Hyak hybrid retrofit is going to be the most extensive, and complicated that has ever been done -- at least at WSF.

[chokai]

Feb 4, 2013 18:05:49 GMT -8 Steve Rosenow said:

I don't understand why we are even refurbishing the Jumbo MkII ferries' interiors when they aren't even at the age to have mid-life upgrades.

And before anyone jumps on the comfort of the Eames chairs, how about the steel benches out in the shelters and sun decks of the Supers? The Jumbos? Every other ferry fleet?

Or the wood "park benches" in the Issaquahs?

The Eames chairs in the Supers are fine.

Hey now I like those "wooden" park benches on the Issaquah's.  Not the most comfortable thing in the world by any stretch but one of the few things left that's actual wood on the boats.  :-)  I think they are a nice touch.

I agree the originally Issaquah interior is heinous and is an example of what's wrong with trying to save to much.  Something all of us as consumers know.  I will say that WSF could probably learn a bit from Metro for buying interiors furnishings that survive heavy use and apply that to boats like the JMII's that have a lot of "sit time". 

[rusty]

Feb 4, 2013 21:51:11 GMT -8 chokai said:

I agree the originally Issaquah interior is heinous and is an example of what's wrong with trying to save to much.  

I don't know if saving money was the primary motive. I believe the company that supplied the seats and benches was owned by the wives of the speakers of the Washington State Senate and house -- Walgren and Bagnariol, IIRC.

[SolDuc]

Some from today at Alki Beach, using my 70-300mm lens:

MV Hyak - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photo, on Flickr


MV Hyak and MV Tacoma - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photo, on Flickr


MV Hyak - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photo, on Flickr


MV Hyak - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photo, on Flickr


MV Hyak - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photo, on Flickr

[compdude787]

Feb 4, 2013 21:26:34 GMT -8 rusty said:

...and don't forget that the Hyak hybrid retrofit is going to be the most extensive, and complicated that has ever been done -- at least at WSF.

They shouldn't do the hybrid retrofit with the Hyak.  Do it on a newer ferry. 

After all the Hyak was supposed to be retired in 2008, (EDIT: it was supposed to be retired at that time, before she got new engines) but then the Steel Electric debacle happened.  At least they retired the SEs before they retired a ferry that was 40 years newer. 

On EGFleet's page for the Hyak he makes a good case for why it may be retired early: "It is possible that the Hyak won't get in for her full MLU which will drastically shorten her career.  The ferry is rapidly approaching the tipping point where it will be cheaper to replace her rather than rebuild her.  Given the stability issues the entire class has, her age, and her thirst, it might be in the best interest of the state to consider retiring the Hyak first rather than last."

Whenever she gets retired, hopefully the Evergreen state class will have been retired already.  I hopefully will have plenty of time to ride on it before it gets retired, and see for myself how the Eames chairs feel to sit in.

[vashon115]

Did you see this? Are they trying to build a ferry based on the success of the 787! Sorry couldnt resist.

www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/Business/Contracts/Contracts.aspx?contractnum=00-8373

[SolDuc]

Feb 15, 2013 9:33:49 GMT -8 vashon115 said:

Did you see this? Are they trying to build a ferry based on the success of the 787! Sorry couldnt resist.

www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/Business/Contracts/Contracts.aspx?contractnum=00-8373

Welcome, Vashon115
The hybrid Hyak project is actually what's discussed in the last 10 or so pages of this thread!

[compdude787]

Let's hope it won't have the same sort of battery fire problems as the 787 does!

[chokai]

Feb 11, 2013 22:10:26 GMT -8 compdude787 said:

They shouldn't do the hybrid retrofit with the Hyak.  Do it on a newer ferry. 

After all the Hyak was supposed to be retired in 2008, (EDIT: it was supposed to be retired at that time, before she got new engines) but then the Steel Electric debacle happened.  At least they retired the SEs before they retired a ferry that was 40 years newer. 

On EGFleet's page for the Hyak he makes a good case for why it may be retired early: "It is possible that the Hyak won't get in for her full MLU which will drastically shorten her career.  The ferry is rapidly approaching the tipping point where it will be cheaper to replace her rather than rebuild her.  Given the stability issues the entire class has, her age, and her thirst, it might be in the best interest of the state to consider retiring the Hyak first rather than last."

Whenever she gets retired, hopefully the Evergreen state class will have been retired already.  I hopefully will have plenty of time to ride on it before it gets retired, and see for myself how the Eames chairs feel to sit in.

If we choose to engage in a hybrid project expirament (cause that's what it is) at all Hyak is an ideal vessel to do it in.

There is a long history of testing out new technologies on older well known platforms such as the 747 and the B-52. On the maritime side the US navy uses several old Spruance class destroyers for this purpose also, testing out new propulsion, radar and weapons technologies in them.

If you put a hybrid system in Hayak and it turns out to be a disaster or not a worthwhile investment she can finish out her days and then be disposed of. If it works well you can use the equipment until her hull is at it's end of life and then it can then be either re-used if worth it or disposed of with the boat.

If you put the hybrid system in a boat that is newer like an Olympic or an Issaquah and it doesn't work you must then at some point rip that system out and put a new system that does work rather than simply getting rid of the whole thing.

Additionally Hyak is equivalent in size to many of the vessels we will be building over the next 20 to 30 years. It is therefore a much more effective and realistic test than would be offered by building a hybrid vessel on something the size of say an Evergreen or Issaquah.

Some people have pointed out that Hyak might not even have 9 to 10 years left in here and might be severely structurally deficient at this point and that should be checked out independent of any project like this. But if Hyak's material condition is sufficient for her to serve 9 - 10 more years (the lifespan of the types of batteries they are talking about) she's far and away the best option for such a "test".

As to whether it'd work I dunno, the biggest hybrid boats that have been built thus far are a line of tugs, and they have proven to be pretty successful by many accounts.

[chokai]

Feb 15, 2013 11:17:12 GMT -8 compdude787 said:

Let's hope it won't have the same sort of battery fire problems as the 787 does!

I work in the shipping industry and Li-Ion batteries have been a problem for years....  Just mostly a concern of shippers not consumers.  :-)  Li-Ion batteries like those in the 787 are considered a "dangerous good" it means they are treated like many fuels, solvents etc.  Outside of shoddy design and electrical work as it appears might be the case for the 787 the major issue is they don't do good with wild temperature change on the hot side.  Meaning you better be sure to not leave them sitting on the tarmac or outside of a warehouse or in a truck in  100 degree temperatures.  They could work well in a ship if you can provide them a very consistent operating environment.

[rusty]

I would hope that an auto ferry wouldn't need to go over the bleeding edge of battery technology in order to save some weight. It's crazy to put this kind of money into a fifty-year old boat. And yes, they are going to install completely new drive motors, a first for WSF & WSDOT.

It should also be noted that this RFP will retain the two-stroke main engines, which gives up at least 15% in fuel efficiency that could be realized by the installation of four-cycle engines. That's the low hanging fruit of potential fuel efficiency gains, and it is being left on the table, while a much more complex, unproven, and expensive propulsion system upgrade is RFP'd. Unbelievable.

Thank god for the Federal dollar That way all Americans get to pay for this screw up.

[Steve Rosenow]

Feb 15, 2013 19:58:56 GMT -8 rusty said:

I would hope that an auto ferry wouldn't need to go over the bleeding edge of battery technology in order to save some weight. It's crazy to put this kind of money into a fifty-year old boat. And yes, they are going to install completely new drive motors, a first for WSF & WSDOT.

It should also be noted that this RFP will retain the two-stroke main engines, which gives up at least 15% in fuel efficiency that could be realized by the installation of four-cycle engines. That's the low hanging fruit of potential fuel efficiency gains, and it is being left on the table, while a much more complex, unproven, and expensive propulsion system upgrade is RFP'd. Unbelievable.

Thank god for the Federal dollar That way all Americans get to pay for this screw up.

I would rather see research and development performed on an existing vessel regardless of age, as opposed to putting untested equipment and propulsion methods on a new boat. We all saw the consequences of that in the 1980s with the Issaquah-class ferries. 

I fully support the Hyak project. The state is in no position currently to ever see the loss of the Hyak because even as it stands, the first few Olympic-class ferries coming online still leaves the fleet woefully short of backup boats shall we see another "Walla Walla-like" incident where a drive motor failure wipes out the boat for six months or more.

I think it's irresponsible to even suggest the project not be done. If it means the Hyak's life is extended 20 more years and we find this new hybrid propulsion system actually works - Washington State Ferries stands to hold strong bragging rights in the field of R&D on double-ended ferries. 

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater on this until it's done and we see whether or not it works. I would rather see the risk be taken than not have it be taken and the results still unknown.

Whatever happened to taking risks? Risks is what took this country to greatness. Not lounging around on existing and outdated technology.

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2013 19:58:56 GMT -8 rusty said:

I would hope that an auto ferry wouldn't need to go over the bleeding edge of battery technology in order to save some weight. It's crazy to put this kind of money into a fifty-year old boat. And yes, they are going to install completely new drive motors, a first for WSF & WSDOT.

It should also be noted that this RFP will retain the two-stroke main engines, which gives up at least 15% in fuel efficiency that could be realized by the installation of four-cycle engines. That's the low hanging fruit of potential fuel efficiency gains, and it is being left on the table, while a much more complex, unproven, and expensive propulsion system upgrade is RFP'd. Unbelievable.

Thank god for the Federal dollar That way all Americans get to pay for this screw up.

Or it could be a mega success and could change the car and passenger ferry industry for the better of saving money and the environment.

[rusty]

....and when has that ever happened?

[Steve Rosenow]

Feb 15, 2013 20:36:09 GMT -8 rusty said:

....and when has that ever happened?

Let me ask you this.. 

When has it ever been allowed to happen?

I can count zero times because people with your mindset seem to be held back on either retiring a ferry too soon and not investing in the risk, or having the mindset that it should be tested on a new vessel with the risk being much greater (Issaquah-class).

[rusty]

I'm not some kind of neo-luddite. In my world they would be developing a battery propulsion unit for the Mark II's. They are the boats that really need it. For a Super, if you are going to put in new drive motors, alternators, and a propulsion control system -- why the hell aren't you putting in fuel efficient engines. All the upgrades that they plan to do, in this most complex, and assuredly most expensive propulsion upgrade in State history won't even achieve the fuel efficiency of a suitable fuel efficient engine replacement alone. Stupid is stupid!

[chokai]

Feb 15, 2013 21:25:28 GMT -8 rusty said:

I'm not some kind of neo-luddite. In my world they would be developing a battery propulsion unit for the Mark II's. They are the boats that really need it. For a Super, if you are going to put in new drive motors, alternators, and a propulsion control system -- why the hell aren't you putting in fuel efficient engines. All the upgrades that they plan to do, in this most complex, and assuredly most expensive propulsion upgrade in State history won't even achieve the fuel efficiency of a suitable fuel efficient engine replacement alone. Stupid is stupid!

I'd only do a JMII if I had an unlimitted budget and a extreme tolerance for risk.  With Hyak if you did it and it's a total disaster she can be subbed effectively by the new Olympics and several other boats.  As we've seen the last few months there is no spare if a any Jumbo sized vessel unexpectadly goes down.

From a "design/build/test/learn" perspective while there is benefit in more fuel efficient engines it could also be counter productive.  The existing engines are a well known entity and any improvements from a battery supplement can be directly measured against a very well known baseline.  If you put new engines into a boat where did your improvement come from?  Was it the battery system? The new engines?  How much from each?  What about the other operational changes now that we can keep one engine offline  much of the time (as is hoped)? There was much gnashing of teeth on some initial of the hybrid busses for this reason.  Ideally I would knock it down further and carefully adjust things one by one but that's not really viable on this scale. In the end most engineering change is largely incremental is it not?  Dramatic changes are very very rare.

Also if her engines have lets say 15 years left on them or however much time...  Should we really buy brand new engines and put them in then only rip them out or dispose of them when her batteries or hull are shot and she sails into the sunset?

If Hyak were to work you would have proven a hybrid propulsion system as viable on a scale not done before and the lessons learned could be applied to doing the project on a much much more valuable JMII during it's major midlife upgrade with a much better chance of success.   Though the boats do have vastly different propulsion systems admitadly.

[rusty]

Well, if a cash strapped government entity feels the need to do R & D on a large fifty year-old boat, who am I to complain. WSDOT has a record with major vessel retrofits --  way over budget. They just built a class of boats that get twice the fuel consumption of the vessels they replaced, and concurrent to the Hyak project they will also start converting up to six vessesls to LNG. You know, past performance is used to predict future outcomes. With WSDOT's record, and the complexity and scope of the proposed work Hyak work, WSDOT needs all the Pollyannas it can get. 

[compdude787]

Feb 15, 2013 20:06:55 GMT -8 Steve Rosenow said:

Feb 15, 2013 19:58:56 GMT -8 rusty said:

I would hope that an auto ferry wouldn't need to go over the bleeding edge of battery technology in order to save some weight. It's crazy to put this kind of money into a fifty-year old boat. And yes, they are going to install completely new drive motors, a first for WSF & WSDOT.

It should also be noted that this RFP will retain the two-stroke main engines, which gives up at least 15% in fuel efficiency that could be realized by the installation of four-cycle engines. That's the low hanging fruit of potential fuel efficiency gains, and it is being left on the table, while a much more complex, unproven, and expensive propulsion system upgrade is RFP'd. Unbelievable.

Thank god for the Federal dollar That way all Americans get to pay for this screw up.

I would rather see research and development performed on an existing vessel regardless of age, as opposed to putting untested equipment and propulsion methods on a new boat. We all saw the consequences of that in the 1980s with the Issaquah-class ferries. 

I fully support the Hyak project. The state is in no position currently to ever see the loss of the Hyak because even as it stands, the first few Olympic-class ferries coming online still leaves the fleet woefully short of backup boats shall we see another "Walla Walla-like" incident where a drive motor failure wipes out the boat for six months or more.

I think it's irresponsible to even suggest the project not be done. If it means the Hyak's life is extended 20 more years and we find this new hybrid propulsion system actually works - Washington State Ferries stands to hold strong bragging rights in the field of R&D on double-ended ferries. 

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater on this until it's done and we see whether or not it works. I would rather see the risk be taken than not have it be taken and the results still unknown.

Whatever happened to taking risks? Risks is what took this country to greatness. Not lounging around on existing and outdated technology.

You raise a good point!  America is awesome because we took risks.  I'm not opposed to trying out this hybrid technology, but I just don't quite agree with throwing money to keep old vessels in service, especially considering how old the Hyak is.  Since she is now 46 years old and never received an MLU, wouldn't she really only last 14 more years before WSF retires her?  I thought the legislature mandated that vessels had to be retired at age 60.

[chokai]

I think the 60 year rule will see a lot of fudging as long as budgets are tight depending on the individual condition of the boats. Old tired boats will make great "backups" in the legislatures eyes even if the sense of security is false.

Hyak's delayed MLU and the hybrid project are seperate budgetary line items. You might end up with a boat with a super modern propulsion system and a pretty much vintage 1960's interior to save money.  I assume they'd do the necessary MLU metal work still, apparently she's a little rusty under the hood.  Regardless that'd be amusing.

[portorstarboard]

Feb 15, 2013 19:58:56 GMT -8 rusty said:

I would hope that an auto ferry wouldn't need to go over the bleeding edge of battery technology in order to save some weight. It's crazy to put this kind of money into a fifty-year old boat. And yes, they are going to install completely new drive motors, a first for WSF & WSDOT.

It should also be noted that this RFP will retain the two-stroke main engines, which gives up at least 15% in fuel efficiency that could be realized by the installation of four-cycle engines. That's the low hanging fruit of potential fuel efficiency gains, and it is being left on the table, while a much more complex, unproven, and expensive propulsion system upgrade is RFP'd. Unbelievable.

Thank god for the Federal dollar That way all Americans get to pay for this screw up.

Nope, they are now wanting new diesel engines.  Page 23 says "The existing EMD prime movers shall not be reused for this propulsion system replaement."

www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/Business/Contracts/DisplayPDF.aspx?contractdocid=4637

Also, theres nothing making a WSF vessel retire at 60.  The EState will hit that next year.  Rhody went five years past.  The Tilly or Klahowya will go way past 60 when ever the 3rd 144 gets built.