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MV Hyak
Feb 22, 2013 16:31:06 GMT -8
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 22, 2013 16:31:06 GMT -8
I disagree with it, because we don't have enough backup ferries in the system and even then when the M.V. Tokitae comes online we'll be woefully short of boats for backup. That, and the Issaquah-Class ferries are the only class of boats that can provide service on any route without any major disruptions. I also disagree with it because they're already looking at using alternative, cleaner burning fuel technology on them to begin with. It makes no sense. The Hyak is a perfect fit, the hull is fairly sound on it and it's the perfect platform because it's closer in size to the Olympic-class ferries, which by the time the last one rolls off the ways so to speak, might have the technology seeing if what we learn from the Hyak has any positive outcome. First of all, no I am not saying that WSF would do anything to any boat upon the advent of the Tokitae. WSF would wait for the Samish to enter service to do any extensive refits like this. This second Oly class ferry would make it possible to have a real backup ferry. Okay, I'm forgetting that the Issaquah's are the most versatile ferries in the fleet and that they have direct drive propulsion instead of diesel-electric. But I still am in agreement with rusty that the Hyak is not the ideal boat to do this upgrade (but I am NOT opposed to hybrid technologies in general). It's getting too old. My only hope is that doing this upgrade won't give WSF an excuse to keep the ferry in service past age 60. If they go ahead with the upgrade and do a MLU or even a life extension, then I'm for it. It would make complete sense to at least replace the bad spots and preserve the rest of it while they're doing it, and even then keeping it until at least 70 is reasonable seeing as how the Rhody got culled at 65 - and the Rhody was, for all intents, a 20 year old boat in terms of hull and steel condition. |
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MV Hyak
Feb 22, 2013 16:41:51 GMT -8
Post by compdude787 on Feb 22, 2013 16:41:51 GMT -8
Wow, I should have looked all the new replies from the last hour before I wrote my reply above. I like lists, I use them a lot when planning my work team's projects and budgets. So I had to make this. :-) To synopsis we now have the folowing regarding selecting Hyak for this project should they do it... Feel free to add...
Pros for selection of Hyak
• Is similar in size to Olympic class vessels
• Is large enough to provide technical validation for concept on bigger vessels (e.g. JMII's) as well as smaller boats.
- Rusty did you notice that they plan to make her an AC boat like the JMII's as opposed to the DC she is now?
• Already is a Diesel-Electric (does the above impact the value of this?)
• Remaining life span roughly equal to life span of 1 set of the batteries to be used (batteries are gonna be about $1.1M)
• Preserves backup capacity in Jumbo and Issaquah vessels.
Cons for selection of Hyak
• Structural condition uncertainty
- Steve's heard she's fine, I've heard she's a little sketchy so I'm putting it under cons for now until someone digs up something firmer.
• Investments in new main diesels, generators and drive motors that may only see 10 to 12 years of service.
• Removes a 144 sized vessel from service for an indeterminate period of time. (who knows how long installation and testing will take)
I will say it's a real shame we don't have an around 144 car 30 year old boat that's a Diesel-Electric that can be spared. Here's one: seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2004049863_webferry03m.html
Okay, so the Hyak has had some work done on its hull in recent years (yes, that was in 2007, but the hull is most likely still in good shape six years later); thanks for bringing up that article. Now that I know that, it means that this hybrid upgrade can be just that: a hybrid upgrade. And they won't have to spend lots of extra money fixing up the hull (well, heck, they'll probably do some work on the hull anyway). Re chokai's awesome pro/con list: First of all, I'm surprised that the batteries alone cost a million bucks!  Aside from that, you bring up a good point that the Hyak is the right size to serve as the guinea pig for this new technology. I hadn't considered the size advantage previously. And I do think it's kind of strange that they're going to invest in new engines and other stuff that will only be making the boat move across the water for only a decade. Also, I thought the Hyak got new engines from the Jumbos in 2005, and so they aren't even ten years old EDIT: they are 41 years old, still newer than the Hyak's original engines but they weren't brand new in 2005. The Hyak may need new generators and drive motors (I don't know if those were replaced in '05), but definitely not new engines. |
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MV Hyak
Feb 22, 2013 16:55:02 GMT -8
Post by compdude787 on Feb 22, 2013 16:55:02 GMT -8
First of all, no I am not saying that WSF would do anything to any boat upon the advent of the Tokitae. WSF would wait for the Samish to enter service to do any extensive refits like this. This second Oly class ferry would make it possible to have a real backup ferry. Okay, I'm forgetting that the Issaquah's are the most versatile ferries in the fleet and that they have direct drive propulsion instead of diesel-electric. But I still am in agreement with rusty that the Hyak is not the ideal boat to do this upgrade (but I am NOT opposed to hybrid technologies in general). It's getting too old. My only hope is that doing this upgrade won't give WSF an excuse to keep the ferry in service past age 60. If they go ahead with the upgrade and do a MLU or even a life extension, then I'm for it. It would make complete sense to at least replace the bad spots and preserve the rest of it while they're doing it, and even then keeping it until at least 70 is reasonable seeing as how the Rhody got culled at 65 - and the Rhody was, for all intents, a 20 year old boat in terms of hull and steel condition. Hmph. I just don't like the fact that they will keep it for so long. Personally, I think if they're going to build more Olympic class ferries to replace the rest of the Supers in the mid-2020s, they might as well build four, not just three, to allow for the Hyak to be retired too. |
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SolDuc
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MV Hyak
Feb 22, 2013 20:14:07 GMT -8
Post by SolDuc on Feb 22, 2013 20:14:07 GMT -8
Also, I thought the Hyak got new engines from the Jumbos in 2005, and so they aren't even ten years old. The Hyak may need new generators and drive motors (I don't know if those were replaced in '05), but definitely not new engines. Yes, it did get the refurbrished engines from the Jumbos at some point earlier in the last decade but the engines are 40 years old, not 10. Yes, the refurbrishement was there, but they are still pretty old. But I do not think that the Hyak will need new engines. It would be a waste of money. |
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MV Hyak
Feb 22, 2013 21:38:40 GMT -8
Post by compdude787 on Feb 22, 2013 21:38:40 GMT -8
Also, I thought the Hyak got new engines from the Jumbos in 2005, and so they aren't even ten years old. The Hyak may need new generators and drive motors (I don't know if those were replaced in '05), but definitely not new engines. Yes, it did get the refurbrished engines from the Jumbos at some point earlier in the last decade but the engines are 40 years old, not 10. Yes, the refurbrishement was there, but they are still pretty old. But I do not think that the Hyak will need new engines. It would be a waste of money. Yeah that's what I thought but I wasn't sure. I'll correct my post. |
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MV Hyak
Feb 23, 2013 21:52:59 GMT -8
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 23, 2013 21:52:59 GMT -8
The Hyak stalled just outside the Bremerton ferry terminal after the 7:55 departure out of Seattle. I didn't take photos, but I saw it on Highway 16 as I was leaving Bremerton to come back home.
It's on the Kitsap Sun Newspaper's Facebook page right now.
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MV Hyak
Feb 23, 2013 21:57:48 GMT -8
Post by compdude787 on Feb 23, 2013 21:57:48 GMT -8
The Hyak stalled just outside the Bremerton ferry terminal after the 7:55 departure out of Seattle. I didn't take photos, but I saw it on Highway 16 as I was leaving Bremerton to come back home. It's on the Kitsap Sun Newspaper's Facebook page right now. YAAAAAAAAAAAY...Not!  Hopefully it's a quick fix, and that Hyak won't be out of service for super long! |
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MV Hyak
Feb 23, 2013 22:07:56 GMT -8
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 23, 2013 22:07:56 GMT -8
The Hyak stalled just outside the Bremerton ferry terminal after the 7:55 departure out of Seattle. I didn't take photos, but I saw it on Highway 16 as I was leaving Bremerton to come back home. It's on the Kitsap Sun Newspaper's Facebook page right now. YAAAAAAAAAAAY...Not! Hopefully it's a quick fix, and that Hyak won't be out of service for super long! Replies on the Facebook page post for the Kitsap Sun indicate that the vessel is moving again and operating normally after a series of stop-and-go tests. |
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MV Hyak
Feb 24, 2013 13:38:49 GMT -8
Post by compdude787 on Feb 24, 2013 13:38:49 GMT -8
Okay, good.  |
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Post by portorstarboard on Mar 7, 2013 1:36:42 GMT -8
If you do five LNG Issys why not the sixth. Turning a two enginee CPP into a hybrid sounds harder. I think the HYak makes the most sense. Maybe her age isn't perfect. But I think this thing will save a lot of fuel. Thats got to count for a lot. What does a Super burn like 100000 gal per month? If Olympia has an extra $100mil laying around, then maybe cancel Hyak for a 144. But that also sounds like putting all the eggs i one basket. If they start exporting our LNG to all the countries paying the same amount as diesel!
I am with Rosenow and Chokai, they should do this. Japan came out with the Prius in the 90s. Hell, how many Volts or leafs get on these ferries every day. Foss did the Carolyn Dorothy a few years ago. Start planning now to save fuel. Or get ready to pay through the nose at the pump.
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MV Hyak
Apr 4, 2013 19:19:10 GMT -8
Post by apollofire on Apr 4, 2013 19:19:10 GMT -8
I guess WSDOT must be serious about funding the Hyak hybrid project. Kitsap Sun just reported that Washington State Ferries was funded at $22 million! I did some searching and found page 4 of this legislative budget listing, it does list up to almost 22 million to do this ferry upgrade: www.ofm.wa.gov/budget13/recsum/transpo_project_list1315.pdf |
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MV Hyak
Apr 7, 2013 16:14:01 GMT -8
Post by compdude787 on Apr 7, 2013 16:14:01 GMT -8
I guess WSDOT must be serious about funding the Hyak hybrid project. Kitsap Sun just reported that Washington State Ferries was funded at $22 million! I did some searching and found page 4 of this legislative budget listing, it does list up to almost 22 million to do this ferry upgrade: www.ofm.wa.gov/budget13/recsum/transpo_project_list1315.pdfBTW, this is the governor's proposed budget from December 2012. Since then, we now have a new governor (although still a Democrat, but still has shaken things up quite a bit), and plus the Legislature is going to end up having a budget that's different from what our previous governor proposed. |
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MV Hyak
Apr 7, 2013 17:08:20 GMT -8
Post by rusty on Apr 7, 2013 17:08:20 GMT -8
From my take on the Hybrid Hyak RFP, twenty-two million ain't enough. It's pretty much a gut job from the machinery side of boat. New drive motors, generators, engines, switchgear, etc. Then install a large lithium-ion battery bank, and get a very complicated power control system to work. Not enough money.
Does anyone know of any other budgeted money for the Hyak Project?
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Post by chokai on Apr 8, 2013 12:22:31 GMT -8
The budget is $22M for the 2013-2015 bill. The state anticipates spending another $8M in 2015-2017 on her. I think that $8M is for interior work though. Both the senate and house bills are largely identical so it's really unlikely this won't get funded. A previously allocated amount to this project was $18M during 2011/2012. Pef the RFP questions at least one vendor was concerned about this not being enough, that might be why we are seeing $22M now? Proposals for Hyak under the current RFP are due on 4/12 so you can probably expect a little news about this shortly... If the bids are less or more the legislature can revise thier allocations up/down appropriately or WSF can scrap it if the cost benefit analysis that was done as part of the tiger grant a few years ago no longer pencils out. If anyone wants a lot of information I'd urge you to read the RFP, since it's so far along it's got a bunch of good info on it now including a lot of questions from potential bidders that will tell you where thier worries are trending. Why was Hyak doing sea trials this past weekend? To allow bidders to characterize her electrical load and performance attributes themselves. www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/Business/Contracts/Contracts.aspx?category=10&fiscalyear=2013&awarded=edit: RFP includes some (low quality) pictures of Kaleetan, Elwha and Hyak's bridge controlsetup. Steve you might wanna see those  |
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MV Hyak
Apr 8, 2013 20:55:10 GMT -8
Post by Steve Rosenow on Apr 8, 2013 20:55:10 GMT -8
The budget is $22M for the 2013-2015 bill. The state anticipates spending another $8M in 2015-2017 on her. I think that $8M is for interior work though. Both the senate and house bills are largely identical so it's really unlikely this won't get funded. A previously allocated amount to this project was $18M during 2011/2012. Pef the RFP questions at least one vendor was concerned about this not being enough, that might be why we are seeing $22M now? Proposals for Hyak under the current RFP are due on 4/12 so you can probably expect a little news about this shortly... If the bids are less or more the legislature can revise thier allocations up/down appropriately or WSF can scrap it if the cost benefit analysis that was done as part of the tiger grant a few years ago no longer pencils out. If anyone wants a lot of information I'd urge you to read the RFP, since it's so far along it's got a bunch of good info on it now including a lot of questions from potential bidders that will tell you where thier worries are trending. Why was Hyak doing sea trials this past weekend? To allow bidders to characterize her electrical load and performance attributes themselves. www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/Business/Contracts/Contracts.aspx?category=10&fiscalyear=2013&awarded=edit: RFP includes some (low quality) pictures of Kaleetan, Elwha and Hyak's bridge controlsetup. Steve you might wanna see those Duly noted and documents, erm, *saved* for future reference! *thumbsup* |
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SolDuc
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MV Hyak
Apr 10, 2013 13:32:09 GMT -8
Post by SolDuc on Apr 10, 2013 13:32:09 GMT -8
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SolDuc
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MV Hyak
Apr 12, 2013 21:45:50 GMT -8
Post by SolDuc on Apr 12, 2013 21:45:50 GMT -8
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SolDuc
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MV Hyak
Apr 14, 2013 22:07:30 GMT -8
Post by SolDuc on Apr 14, 2013 22:07:30 GMT -8
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Apr 23, 2013 6:56:04 GMT -8
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MV Hyak
Apr 23, 2013 14:14:28 GMT -8
Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 23, 2013 14:14:28 GMT -8
Would she get a mid-life refit during this period too? |
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MV Hyak
Apr 23, 2013 21:19:14 GMT -8
Post by compdude787 on Apr 23, 2013 21:19:14 GMT -8
Would she get a mid-life refit during this period too? I think the Hyak has already gotten many of the basic things that would happen in an MLU, but it's kind of been like little-by-little over the years. This will be more like a life-extension of a vessel that will then be 47 years old. The article also said that the Hyak won't be retired till 2031, and by then she will be 64 years old, which was the age of the Chippewa when she got retired. As they say, "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first." That's how WSF will retire the Supers. |
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MV Hyak
Apr 23, 2013 22:53:59 GMT -8
Post by Steve Rosenow on Apr 23, 2013 22:53:59 GMT -8
Would she get a mid-life refit during this period too? I think the Hyak has already gotten many of the basic things that would happen in an MLU, but it's kind of been like little-by-little over the years. This will be more like a life-extension of a vessel that will then be 47 years old. The article also said that the Hyak won't be retired till 2031, and by then she will be 64 years old, which was the age of the Chippewa when she got retired. As they say, "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first." That's how WSF will retire the Supers. Reminds me of a Jeopardy! Category clue from the April 5, 1991 broadcast. Category was Biblical Phrases... "From the last shall be first, and the first - last. For many are called but ___" |
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MV Hyak
Apr 25, 2013 5:14:36 GMT -8
Post by Barnacle on Apr 25, 2013 5:14:36 GMT -8
Would she get a mid-life refit during this period too? I think the Hyak has already gotten many of the basic things that would happen in an MLU, but it's kind of been like little-by-little over the years. This will be more like a life-extension of a vessel that will then be 47 years old. The article also said that the Hyak won't be retired till 2031... The interiors have been partially renewed over the years, but in the original color scheme (save for the white deck tile) so it largely goes unnoticed. That being said, there should be some fairly intense work done to the boat if it is to be a proper MLU. I'll just be sorry to see the "old school" operating equipment go, from a nostalgic point of view. (On a practical level, the new stuff ought to be one heck of an improvement over, shall we say, some of the charming eccentricities? ) |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 13, 2013 18:05:27 GMT -8
The Hyak hybrid project has it own page, now. The conversion part of project will be from October 2014 until May 2015. Will she be getting a mid-life refit during that time too? |
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SolDuc
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MV Hyak
May 13, 2013 19:26:49 GMT -8
Post by SolDuc on May 13, 2013 19:26:49 GMT -8
The Hyak hybrid project has it own page, now. Actually, this page is up since at least last November. Not very recent. |
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Aside from that, you bring up a good point that the Hyak is the right size to serve as the guinea pig for this new technology. I hadn't considered the size advantage previously. 
