Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,281
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Post by Neil on Mar 17, 2020 21:34:14 GMT -8
Now that she is offically retied, Why is she still on vesselwatch/WSDOT's page? And why is she still at anacortes? And also i would like to know whats the big deal with corrrosion? I mean she is still safe and able to be in service if she just gets painted. They already replaced some of the rotten steel when it was remodeled in the 2010's "What's the big deal with corrosion?" Well, nothing, really. As you say, slap some paint on her, and there's nothing further age and salt water can do. Bon voyage!
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Mar 17, 2020 21:40:24 GMT -8
...And also i would like to know whats the big deal with corrrosion? I mean she is still safe and able to be in service if she just gets painted. They already replaced some of the rotten steel when it was remodeled in the 2010's The hard truth is that she is not safe to sail on. Car Deck Corrosion is far more than some aesthetically unpleasant rust- It's a serious issue that has severely weakened the deck. In an extreme worst-case scenario, a corrosion-induced structural failure could sink the boat. Its not something to take lightly. ***** To be frank, I don't agree with the decision to retire the Elwha- The fleet had struggled to maintain service with 22 boats and I think that trying to maintain a fleet with 21 boats for three years (at least) will end up costing more money in increased backlogged maintenance and economic impacts from an increased rate of service interruptions. But what's done is done- she's not funded, the necessary repairs cannot go forward at this point. And without those repairs, she is not safe to sail on and cannot return to service. Period.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 17, 2020 21:57:02 GMT -8
To be honest i think a good idea for her is actually to but good steel above and below the corroded steel. Basically attaching steel to the wall of the car deck therefor no stress is put on the corroded steel. Under the car deck so when the corroded steel flakes and crumbles that rotten steel wont get everywhere. I highly doubt this would work but its just an idea i came up with.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,281
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Post by Neil on Mar 17, 2020 22:14:11 GMT -8
To be honest i think a good idea for her is actually to but good steel above and below the corroded steel. Basically attaching steel to the wall of the car deck therefor no stress is put on the corroded steel. Under the car deck so when the corroded steel flakes and crumbles that rotten steel wont get everywhere. I highly doubt this would work but its just an idea i came up with. Maybe you should share this idea with WSF powers that be. Just leave out your comment, "I highly doubt this would work."
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 18, 2020 5:32:49 GMT -8
To be honest i think a good idea for her is actually to but good steel above and below the corroded steel. Basically attaching steel to the wall of the car deck therefor no stress is put on the corroded steel. Under the car deck so when the corroded steel flakes and crumbles that rotten steel wont get everywhere. I highly doubt this would work but its just an idea i came up with. Maybe you should share this idea with WSF powers that be. Just leave out your comment, "I highly doubt this would work." The. Elwha. Is. Done. No more money will be spent on her. Do I need to use a larger type size? (And no, it wouldn't work.)
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 18, 2020 6:15:40 GMT -8
To be honest i think a good idea for her is actually to but good steel above and below the corroded steel. Basically attaching steel to the wall of the car deck therefor no stress is put on the corroded steel. Under the car deck so when the corroded steel flakes and crumbles that rotten steel wont get everywhere. I highly doubt this would work but its just an idea i came up with. What are your thoughts on COVID-19? I'm interested, in a train-wreck kind of way.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 18, 2020 7:53:15 GMT -8
To be honest i think a good idea for her is actually to but good steel above and below the corroded steel. Basically attaching steel to the wall of the car deck therefor no stress is put on the corroded steel. Under the car deck so when the corroded steel flakes and crumbles that rotten steel wont get everywhere. I highly doubt this would work but its just an idea i came up with. What are your thoughts on COVID-19? I'm interested, in a train-wreck kind of way. I think this COVID 19 is annoying. I planned to to to Coupeville last sunday but they annouced all them shops closed. I was quite dissapointed.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 18, 2020 12:03:03 GMT -8
I think the idea to retire her is stupid. The Elwha is the only bigger solas vessel and what would happen if the Chelan breaks down?! I mean they cant just send the sealth over there! They should probabaly baby this Elwha by repairing her and remodeling her and possibly it would live on till the 2035's if they baby her. Why not baby the CHELAN? Well the Chelan is smaller, Louder, Has bigger wake, and more flimsy! Yes a couple hundred million dollars is expensive, but the olympic class is just not really sutible for the Sidney run. They react to stroms very badly. 4-5 ft waves and the cars are gettin a salt wash. With the olympics the entire ship would be rattleing and shooting from the sides. The issaquah class handles it a bit better but if you have ever seen it in the san juans during a storm... YEAH. But the Elwha? She just kills those 6 footers! D O N O T R E T I R E T H E E L W H A! F I X H E R U P!!!!!!!
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 18, 2020 12:43:08 GMT -8
I think the idea to retire her is stupid. The Elwha is the only bigger solas vessel and what would happen if the Chelan breaks down?! I mean they cant just send the sealth over there! They should probabaly baby this Elwha by repairing her and remodeling her and possibly it would live on till the 2035's if they baby her. Why not baby the CHELAN? Well the Chelan is smaller, Louder, Has bigger wake, and more flimsy! Yes a couple hundred million dollars is expensive, but the olympic class is just not really sutible for the Sidney run. They react to stroms very badly. 4-5 ft waves and the cars are gettin a salt wash. With the olympics the entire ship would be rattleing and shooting from the sides. The issaquah class handles it a bit better but if you have ever seen it in the san juans during a storm... YEAH. But the Elwha? She just kills those 6 footers! D O N O T R E T I R E T H E E L W H A! F I X H E R U P!!!!!!!As someone who has operated the Elwha in stormy conditions for a great many years, I can say with a certain amount of authority that your assessment of her storm capabilities vastly overrates her. 6-foot seas on the Elwha equals green water on deck. The Olympic class isn't ideal either, but still better than the Elwha. The Issaquahs are better in heavy weather than either one. And "flimsy" is about the last word I'd use to describe the Issaquah class boats. They've got the thickest hull plating in the fleet. Clearly your favorite boat is the Elwha; mine's the Hyak. Both are gone. Deal with it.
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Post by Kahloke on Mar 18, 2020 12:45:53 GMT -8
I think the idea to retire her is stupid. The Elwha is the only bigger solas vessel and what would happen if the Chelan breaks down?! I mean they cant just send the sealth over there! They should probabaly baby this Elwha by repairing her and remodeling her and possibly it would live on till the 2035's if they baby her. Why not baby the CHELAN? Well the Chelan is smaller, Louder, Has bigger wake, and more flimsy! Yes a couple hundred million dollars is expensive, but the olympic class is just not really sutible for the Sidney run. They react to stroms very badly. 4-5 ft waves and the cars are gettin a salt wash. With the olympics the entire ship would be rattleing and shooting from the sides. The issaquah class handles it a bit better but if you have ever seen it in the san juans during a storm... YEAH. But the Elwha? She just kills those 6 footers! D O N O T R E T I R E T H E E L W H A! F I X H E R U P!!!!!!!1. You need to go back through this thread and read the posts to research why thing have turned out the way they have. In a nutshell: none of the Supers are aging well. Elwha is in worse condition than her sisters because of damage she received in a storm back in the early 90's, that caved one whole side of her in. Truthfully, she should have been retired then, but they chose to fix her out of necessity, and now we are approaching 30 years from when that happened, and not surprisingly, things are failing. 2. Chelan will have to soldier on as the lone SOLAS vessel until another one can get the certification, either a new-build or a retrofit of one of the Olympics. When Chelan or another vessel in the islands breaks down, I expect Sidney service will be cancelled, and the boats re-positioned to maintain domestic service. Sidney is nice to have but it is NOT essential service. 3. Elwha is FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!! I put in the exclamation marks because you apparently don't seem to be getting it. MOVE ON!
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 18, 2020 18:07:25 GMT -8
I think the idea to retire her is stupid. The Elwha is the only bigger solas vessel and what would happen if the Chelan breaks down?! I mean they cant just send the sealth over there! They should probabaly baby this Elwha by repairing her and remodeling her and possibly it would live on till the 2035's if they baby her. Why not baby the CHELAN? Well the Chelan is smaller, Louder, Has bigger wake, and more flimsy! Yes a couple hundred million dollars is expensive, but the olympic class is just not really sutible for the Sidney run. They react to stroms very badly. 4-5 ft waves and the cars are gettin a salt wash. With the olympics the entire ship would be rattleing and shooting from the sides. The issaquah class handles it a bit better but if you have ever seen it in the san juans during a storm... YEAH. But the Elwha? She just kills those 6 footers! D O N O T R E T I R E T H E E L W H A! F I X H E R U P!!!!!!!As someone who has operated the Elwha in stormy conditions for a great many years, I can say with a certain amount of authority that your assessment of her storm capabilities vastly overrates her. 6-foot seas on the Elwha equals green water on deck. The Olympic class isn't ideal either, but still better than the Elwha. The Issaquahs are better in heavy weather than either one. And "flimsy" is about the last word I'd use to describe the Issaquah class boats. They've got the thickest hull plating in the fleet. Clearly your favorite boat is the Elwha; mine's the Hyak. Both are gone. Deal with it. So which boat is the worst in storms and best in storms?I know for certain that the JM II's are the best in storms, way better than the supers. But the supers are not bad for certain. Maybe the issaquah's are good in storms? I know the Elwha is gone and i could of responded better.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 18, 2020 20:10:36 GMT -8
As someone who has operated the Elwha in stormy conditions for a great many years, I can say with a certain amount of authority that your assessment of her storm capabilities vastly overrates her. 6-foot seas on the Elwha equals green water on deck. The Olympic class isn't ideal either, but still better than the Elwha. The Issaquahs are better in heavy weather than either one. And "flimsy" is about the last word I'd use to describe the Issaquah class boats. They've got the thickest hull plating in the fleet. Clearly your favorite boat is the Elwha; mine's the Hyak. Both are gone. Deal with it. So which boat is the worst in storms and best in storms?I know for certain that the JM II's are the best in storms, way better than the supers. But the supers are not bad for certain. Maybe the issaquah's are good in storms? I know the Elwha is gone and i could of responded better. I know nothing of the Jumbos or Mark IIs in heavy weather as I've never seen either in it. (I'd have to drag them across Rosario Strait in "standard" San Juan storm conditions to compare.) The Supers are the least comfortable weather boats in the islands, the Issaquahs the most; the Olympics lie somewhere in between. Been a long time since I did the Evergreen in bad weather but she wasn't comfortable either.
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Post by compdude787 on Mar 21, 2020 15:29:56 GMT -8
I think the idea to retire her is stupid. The Elwha is the only bigger solas vessel and what would happen if the Chelan breaks down?! I mean they cant just send the sealth over there! They should probabaly baby this Elwha by repairing her and remodeling her and possibly it would live on till the 2035's if they baby her. Why not baby the CHELAN? Well the Chelan is smaller, Louder, Has bigger wake, and more flimsy! Yes a couple hundred million dollars is expensive, but the olympic class is just not really sutible for the Sidney run. They react to stroms very badly. 4-5 ft waves and the cars are gettin a salt wash. With the olympics the entire ship would be rattleing and shooting from the sides. The issaquah class handles it a bit better but if you have ever seen it in the san juans during a storm... YEAH. But the Elwha? She just kills those 6 footers! D O N O T R E T I R E T H E E L W H A! F I X H E R U P!!!!!!!Is it too harsh to say that I facepalmed when reading this? Anyway, it does suck that the Elwha is being retired, especially because I never got the chance to get a ride on the Elwha (she was the only Super that I hadn't ridden on yet). Oh well, she's probably not too much different than the other three Supers anyway... This whole situation reminds me of when my car broke down on a roadtrip last summer. I had an '01 Toyota Corolla with 180K miles on it, and I was an hour south of Las Vegas when the engine started making a really bad rattling noise. I felt that I shouldn't continue driving it in that condition, so I got it towed to a shop in Las Vegas and they told me the engine was toast and would cost $4500 to replace it. I'd paid $1500 for the car a year earlier, so this repair would cost more than the car was worth. Also, given the age of the car, and the fact that additional maintenance problems would likely continue to happen with it, I decided to part ways with the car, even though I knew I'd miss having a car with a stick shift. Ultimately, I got a new car that is only 10 years old and is in much better shape and is a much nicer car (I got a Toyota Camry, which meant I have more legroom and I managed to find one with a stick shift!). I think I made the right decision and it would have made zero sense to dump money into that old car that was getting up there in mileage and age, and would have had only a few years of life left on it anyway. Likewise, the state made the right decision to stop dumping money into a 52-year old ferry that was essentially becoming a money pit. In retrospect, even the repairs to the steel in the passenger deck weren't really worth it given that the ferry would be retired a year after they did that.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 21, 2020 16:52:21 GMT -8
I think the idea to retire her is stupid. The Elwha is the only bigger solas vessel and what would happen if the Chelan breaks down?! I mean they cant just send the sealth over there! They should probabaly baby this Elwha by repairing her and remodeling her and possibly it would live on till the 2035's if they baby her. Why not baby the CHELAN? Well the Chelan is smaller, Louder, Has bigger wake, and more flimsy! Yes a couple hundred million dollars is expensive, but the olympic class is just not really sutible for the Sidney run. They react to stroms very badly. 4-5 ft waves and the cars are gettin a salt wash. With the olympics the entire ship would be rattleing and shooting from the sides. The issaquah class handles it a bit better but if you have ever seen it in the san juans during a storm... YEAH. But the Elwha? She just kills those 6 footers! D O N O T R E T I R E T H E E L W H A! F I X H E R U P!!!!!!!Is it too harsh to say that I facepalmed when reading this? Anyway, it does suck that the Elwha is being retired, especially because I never got the chance to get a ride on the Elwha (she was the only Super that I hadn't ridden on yet). Oh well, she's probably not too much different than the other three Supers anyway... This whole situation reminds me of when my car broke down on a roadtrip last summer. I had an '01 Toyota Corolla with 180K miles on it, and I was an hour south of Las Vegas when the engine started making a really bad rattling noise. I felt that I shouldn't continue driving it in that condition, so I got it towed to a shop in Las Vegas and they told me the engine was toast and would cost $4500 to replace it. I'd paid $1500 for the car a year earlier, so this repair would cost more than the car was worth. Also, given the age of the car, and the fact that additional maintenance problems would likely continue to happen with it, I decided to part ways with the car, even though I knew I'd miss having a car with a stick shift. Ultimately, I got a new car that is only 10 years old and is in much better shape and is a much nicer car (I got a Toyota Camry, which meant I have more legroom and I managed to find one with a stick shift!). I think I made the right decision and it would have made zero sense to dump money into that old car that was getting up there in mileage and age, and would have had only a few years of life left on it anyway. Likewise, the state made the right decision to stop dumping money into a 52-year old ferry that was essentially becoming a money pit. In retrospect, even the repairs to the steel in the passenger deck weren't really worth it given that the ferry would be retired a year after they did that. I appreciate the analogy, CompDude. That type of perspective is what some life experience will give you, when you've had to make tough decisions under limiting circumstances. And I suppose that if you had a whiny kid with you, there might have been some "That's so stupid" comments, but thankfully you didn't have those distracting annoyances.
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Post by Elwha on the Rocks on Mar 23, 2020 21:40:42 GMT -8
As we have now established, the Elwha's time with WSF seems to be done. I just wanted to take a second to appreciate what is one of the most meaningful ferries to me. While Elwha is definitely a love-it or hate-it ferry, I've always had a soft spot for the boat. It's the ferry that I credit for sparking my interest in ferries. I can still clearly remember my intrigue in second grade after discovering that I was riding the "Elwha" and that, yes, all the ferries have names. I spent the rest of that summer researching and soaking up any bits of info I could find on WSF's fleet. In the years that followed I would go on to take many ferry trips across the Northwest, but I was always most excited to take a trip to the San Juans to ride the Evergreen State and Elwha. Both boats are now gone, but I believe I'll always remember that combo as the pinnacle of my passion for ferries. Anyways, hope that wasn't too random! Somebody had to put in a good word for what is perhaps the WSF equivalent of the Queen of Chilliwack.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 23, 2020 21:47:11 GMT -8
As we have now established, the Elwha's time with WSF seems to be done. I just wanted to take a second to appreciate what is one of the most meaningful ferries to me. While Elwha is definitely a love-it or hate-it ferry, I've always had a soft spot for the boat. It's the ferry that I credit for sparking my interest in ferries. I can still clearly remember my intrigue in second grade after discovering that I was riding the "Elwha" and that, yes, all the ferries have names. I spent the rest of that summer researching and soaking up any bits of info I could find on WSF's fleet. In the years that followed I would go on to take many ferry trips across the Northwest, but I was always most excited to take a trip to the San Juans to ride the Evergreen State and Elwha. Both boats are now gone, but I believe I'll always remember that combo as the pinnacle of my passion for ferries. Anyways, hope that wasn't too random! Somebody had to put in a good word for what is perhaps the WSF equivalent of the Queen of Chilliwack. I have a soft spot for the Elwha too. She is the unique one out of all the supers(to me she is unique) and she just felt really sturdy and cozy. Its sad to see her go. That storm in 1990 cursed her with corrosion.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 26, 2020 16:57:48 GMT -8
So which boat is the worst in storms and best in storms?I know for certain that the JM II's are the best in storms, way better than the supers. But the supers are not bad for certain. Maybe the issaquah's are good in storms? I know the Elwha is gone and i could of responded better. I know nothing of the Jumbos or Mark IIs in heavy weather as I've never seen either in it. (I'd have to drag them across Rosario Strait in "standard" San Juan storm conditions to compare.) The Supers are the least comfortable weather boats in the islands, the Issaquahs the most; the Olympics lie somewhere in between. Been a long time since I did the Evergreen in bad weather but she wasn't comfortable either. Since you have never seen a mark II in a storm, heres a clip of a jumbo mark II in a storm! (ik its JM II because of the yellow stripe instead of black and yellow stripe on the car deck than the other classes of ferry)
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 31, 2020 16:49:39 GMT -8
I know nothing of the Jumbos or Mark IIs in heavy weather as I've never seen either in it. (I'd have to drag them across Rosario Strait in "standard" San Juan storm conditions to compare.) The Supers are the least comfortable weather boats in the islands, the Issaquahs the most; the Olympics lie somewhere in between. Been a long time since I did the Evergreen in bad weather but she wasn't comfortable either. Since you have never seen a mark II in a storm, heres a clip of a jumbo mark II in a storm! (ik its JM II because of the yellow stripe instead of black and yellow stripe on the car deck than the other classes of ferry) Storm? I didn't see a storm in that video; those were about 30-knot winds, maybe 35. Crossing Rosario Strait, we have a name for that: "Tuesday."
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 31, 2020 17:47:42 GMT -8
Since you have never seen a mark II in a storm, heres a clip of a jumbo mark II in a storm! (ik its JM II because of the yellow stripe instead of black and yellow stripe on the car deck than the other classes of ferry) Storm? I didn't see a storm in that video; those were about 30-knot winds, maybe 35. Crossing Rosario Strait, we have a name for that: "Tuesday." Well heak, All the other ships in wsf's arsenal would have a lot of spray in those 5-6 footers. The mark II's take it well. The Elwha might of fared fine, but the mark 2 dident even list.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 31, 2020 17:49:27 GMT -8
the jumbos are way differnt in storms than the Jumbo Mark II's. Why is that? (look at 10:02)
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Post by Elwha on the Rocks on Mar 31, 2020 19:01:32 GMT -8
I think one important thing to remember with any ferry in a storm is that there are many different variations of "storms." Wind direction, strength, angle compared to the ferry, and currents will all effect what you feel as a passenger. Because of that it's a little hard to judge the storm capability of a ship from just one example. For the most part, it isn't an issue for WSF since they sail in sheltered water. (San Juans and Port Townsend are probably the most heavy-weather prone routes.) For what it's worth, I've heard most weather-related cancellations are more out of concern for passenger comfort and corrosive salt spray on cars than it is out of concern regarding the capability of the ship. Port Townsend often cancels due to the dangers of entering the narrow Keystone Harbor with unpredictable gusts of wind.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 31, 2020 19:09:45 GMT -8
I think one important thing to remember with any ferry in a storm is that there are many different variations of "storms." Wind direction, strength, angle compared to the ferry, and currents will all effect what you feel as a passenger. Because of that it's a little hard to judge the storm capability of a ship from just one example. For the most part, it isn't an issue for WSF since they sail in sheltered water. (San Juans and Port Townsend are probably the most heavy-weather prone routes.) For what it's worth, I've heard most weather-related cancellations are more out of concern for passenger comfort and corrosive salt spray on cars than it is out of concern regarding the capability of the ship. Port Townsend often cancels due to the dangers of entering the narrow Keystone Harbor with unpredictable gusts of wind. Quick question! Are these ferries rated for offshore service? oh and also, i think the reason why the Mark II's do better in a storm is that they have a higher freeborad and a different hull shape.
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Post by compdude787 on Mar 31, 2020 19:48:33 GMT -8
the jumbos are way differnt in storms than the Jumbo Mark II's. Why is that? (look at 10:02) I'll admit I didn't watch the whole video, but that's not really a storm either. Just a windy day with some whitecaps.
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Post by Elwha on the Rocks on Mar 31, 2020 20:17:46 GMT -8
Nope! All of their boats have an open cardeck which is not suitable for handling any sort of offshore service.
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Post by withtheferries on Mar 31, 2020 20:58:27 GMT -8
Nope! All of their boats have an open cardeck which is not suitable for handling any sort of offshore service. Ahhh i get it. it would be cool if they competed with alaska marine highway and went to alaska too. But i know for sure it aint gona happen. Rest in peace Elwha. I wonder how shes doin at anacortes.
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