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Post by donatotummillo on Jan 12, 2024 17:13:08 GMT -8
$15M isnt that much at all. what?? - its 15 of u guys selling your houses? - 25% of tn's jackpot? i really hope somebody with big b###s comes up with a workable solution to employ these boats. pipedream solutions? - retiring coho and doubling capacity to PA? - using these as shells for the C-class replacements? - repurpose as cdn navy supply ships? - repurpose as hospital ships? - home for bcf museum? At this rate, MV Coho isn’t retiring anytime soon, and that is a testament to longevity of a Sidney Class style ferry if it’s continuously maintained. But, she is Black Ball’s only vessel so the budget is for her and her only pretty much. Unfortunately, as much as I’d love to see a Pacificat replace her, that means trying to convince Victoria City Council into finally putting a proper ferry terminal at Ogden Point as it would be ridiculous to try and convert a Pacificat to side loading. Good luck with that lol If BC Ferries were to buy these back, I could see an express service being implemented between Tsawwassen and Duke Point as both of those terminals are not really in sheltered bays. Plus, BC Ferries is already trying to push commuter traffic towards Duke Point anyways with 3 boat service in the summer to stagger sailings vs the old 3 boat service at Horseshoe Bay. It would be an interesting concept. However, passenger lounge space would definitely need to be expanded for that, and even though BC Ferries aren’t strangers to modifying their vessels, that would be costly. Finally, they still wouldn’t be able to travel at their original rated speeds, but that honestly doesn’t matter, even if they go a few knots faster than a C-Class (which I believe are still the fastest ships in the fleet as of right now), that’s better than nothing at all. |
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Post by donatotummillo on Jan 12, 2024 17:15:43 GMT -8
I have a feeling that if these were never built, we would’ve had 4 Spirit Class vessels and the other 3 Century Class that were slated to be built. Probably retired of Victoria Class and possibly the Powell River Class. I wonder if we would have seen the Coastal Class vessels? I’m pretty sure we still would have seen the Coastal Class if we had 4 Spirit’s. But they would’ve been primarily used for Nanaimo-Vancouver routes. |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 12, 2024 18:11:40 GMT -8
Probably retired of Victoria Class and possibly the Powell River Class. I wonder if we would have seen the Coastal Class vessels? I’m pretty sure we still would have seen the Coastal Class if we had 4 Spirit’s. But they would’ve been primarily used for Nanaimo-Vancouver routes. I would assume Cowichan Class vessel and Queen of New Westminster could handle Vancouver to Nanaimo routes because Spirit Class vessels would operate on Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay. |
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Post by Dane on Jan 13, 2024 11:58:27 GMT -8
Was there any other vessel design consider building such as more Spirit Class vessels other than these vessels? I have a feeling that if these were never built, we would’ve had 4 Spirit Class vessels and the other 3 Century Class that were slated to be built. Also probably would’ve had overpasses at all interchanges on the Nanaimo Parkway as well but I digress lol We don't actually need to guess - BC Ferries had sent their plans to the Government of BC at the time, which were not followed as we know. To abbreviate the history a bit, BC Ferries itself did not come up with the fast ferries thing, that was largely on the political side of government. It's also important to note that the full post-fast ferry vessel allocation was never made entirely clear. Since the Fast Ferries did not materialize as planned, i.e. slower and couldn't carry as much weight as initially planned, BCF was forced to keep a C Class running on Route 2. I suspect we would have seen only 2 V Class get retired if the Fast Cats stayed online. BC Ferries was more or less ready to start procurement on four double ended vessels at the same time the Fast Cat project started, which would have been a one-for-one replacement of the V Class. Even as the Spirits were entering service it was more or less a foregone conclusion that the days of single ended vessels were done on the Southern routes. This version of history would have also maintained an additional major vessel. It is important to remember that the Fast Ferries made the BC Ferries system one generation behind in major vessel replacement. If you read plans from the early into mid 1990s the Coastal Class were nominally delivered 'on time' in the loosest sense of the term, and would have / should have replaced the C Class. Obviously purchasing the Fast Ferries is an allusion only suitable for internet chat groups, but it is still interesting to watch the sad history of these boats play out. |
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Post by markkarj on Jan 13, 2024 16:44:25 GMT -8
If BC Ferries were to buy these back, I could see an express service being implemented between Tsawwassen and Duke Point as both of those terminals are not really in sheltered bays. Plus, BC Ferries is already trying to push commuter traffic towards Duke Point anyways with 3 boat service in the summer to stagger sailings vs the old 3 boat service at Horseshoe Bay. It would be an interesting concept. However, passenger lounge space would definitely need to be expanded for that, and even though BC Ferries aren’t strangers to modifying their vessels, that would be costly. Finally, they still wouldn’t be able to travel at their original rated speeds, but that honestly doesn’t matter, even if they go a few knots faster than a C-Class (which I believe are still the fastest ships in the fleet as of right now), that’s better than nothing at all. Given the current chair of the BC Ferries board was the minister responsible for BC Ferries when the PacifiCats were put on the market, I find it next to impossible that these ships will return to service in our province in any capacity. Moreover, recent renovations on used ships haven't worked out all that well... AKA: Northern Sea Wolf. One question: winding back the clock nearly a quarter century, are there any conditions in which the cats may have actually worked? I remember reading a Vancouver Sun story about a report by Kvaerner Masa that the ships could have provided value if the high speed engines were replaced with conventional engines and the ships refit to carry overheight vehicles. Actually found a CBC report: www.cbc.ca/news/canada/pacificats-to-slow-down-for-b-c-ferries-1.269439 |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 14, 2024 19:48:24 GMT -8
If BC Ferries were to buy these back, I could see an express service being implemented between Tsawwassen and Duke Point as both of those terminals are not really in sheltered bays. Plus, BC Ferries is already trying to push commuter traffic towards Duke Point anyways with 3 boat service in the summer to stagger sailings vs the old 3 boat service at Horseshoe Bay. It would be an interesting concept. However, passenger lounge space would definitely need to be expanded for that, and even though BC Ferries aren’t strangers to modifying their vessels, that would be costly. Finally, they still wouldn’t be able to travel at their original rated speeds, but that honestly doesn’t matter, even if they go a few knots faster than a C-Class (which I believe are still the fastest ships in the fleet as of right now), that’s better than nothing at all. One question: winding back the clock nearly a quarter century, are there any conditions in which the cats may have actually worked? I remember reading a Vancouver Sun story about a report by Kvaerner Masa that the ships could have provided value if the high speed engines were replaced with conventional engines and the ships refit to carry overheight vehicles. Actually found a CBC report: www.cbc.ca/news/canada/pacificats-to-slow-down-for-b-c-ferries-1.269439How would they done have refit to allow carry of over height vehicles? What would they have operated on? |
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Neil
Voyager 
Posts: 7,312
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Post by Neil on Jan 14, 2024 20:20:39 GMT -8
One question: winding back the clock nearly a quarter century, are there any conditions in which the cats may have actually worked? I remember reading a Vancouver Sun story about a report by Kvaerner Masa that the ships could have provided value if the high speed engines were replaced with conventional engines and the ships refit to carry overheight vehicles. Actually found a CBC report: www.cbc.ca/news/canada/pacificats-to-slow-down-for-b-c-ferries-1.269439How would they done have refit to allow carry of over height vehicles? What would they have operated on? I don't know exactly what the definition of 'refit' is... but I don't think the term applied when the V class was sliced and raised horizontally to insert a second car deck. More of a rebuild, perhaps? In any event, given the overrun on the construction costs of the Pacificats, further surgery to give them overheight capacity would have been dreadfully expensive. Obviously it's a moot point now, but I still think they could have been employed just as car carriers. |
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 14, 2024 20:43:51 GMT -8
How would they done have refit to allow carry of over height vehicles? What would they have operated on? One of the magazines (Harbour & Shipping or maybe the WestCoast Mariner) had an article on what might be done to make the FastCats more suitable for use in the BCF fleet. That article probably appeared in about 2002. The title was something like "Cats have Many Lives". Somewhere in a box I have a copy ...
Its all the stuff of fantasy now. These Cats will not be coming back.
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Post by paulvanb on Jan 14, 2024 21:14:07 GMT -8
Years ago, they probably should have run then up island to Comox if they had some way of unloading the upper car deck. By now there should be a way of dealing with the wake or swell they caused. My guess would be that they are headed to the scrapper's torch. The new Hullo ships do cause some of their own.
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Post by northwesterner on Jan 14, 2024 22:29:50 GMT -8
Years ago, they probably should have run then up island to Comox if they had some way of unloading the upper car deck. By now there should be a way of dealing with the wake or swell they caused. My guess would be that they are headed to the scrapper's torch. The new Hullo ships do cause some of their own. Somewhere in this thread, it was mentioned what I remember from listening to Vessel Traffic Control when they were operating. While there was concern about coastal erosion from the wake they put out, the real problem was the abundance of log tows in the Georgia Strait requesting the Pacificats slow for "minimal wash". They were constantly slowing and then reaccelerating out in the middle of the Strait, which was a bigger problem for their on time performance than reduced speeds near shore at the ends of the trips. |
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Post by paulvanb on Jan 14, 2024 23:04:53 GMT -8
Years ago, they probably should have run then up island to Comox if they had some way of unloading the upper car deck. By now there should be a way of dealing with the wake or swell they caused. My guess would be that they are headed to the scrapper's torch. The new Hullo ships do cause some of their own. Somewhere in this thread, it was mentioned what I remember from listening to Vessel Traffic Control when they were operating. While there was concern about coastal erosion from the wake they put out, the real problem was the abundance of log tows in the Georgia Strait requesting the Pacificats slow for "minimal wash". They were constantly slowing and then reaccelerating out in the middle of the Strait, which was a bigger problem for their on time performance than reduced speeds near shore at the ends of the trips. I remember passing one of the cats heading to the island, the swell that it produced made one of seven sisters we were traveling on gave us a bit of a rough ride. |
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Post by northwesterner on Jan 14, 2024 23:46:00 GMT -8
I have a feeling that if these were never built, we would’ve had 4 Spirit Class vessels and the other 3 Century Class that were slated to be built. Also probably would’ve had overpasses at all interchanges on the Nanaimo Parkway as well but I digress lol It's also important to note that the full post-fast ferry vessel allocation was never made entirely clear. Since the Fast Ferries did not materialize as planned, i.e. slower and couldn't carry as much weight as initially planned, BCF was forced to keep a C Class running on Route 2. I suspect we would have seen only 2 V Class get retired if the Fast Cats stayed online. You make an important point here. I recall that the operating plan was for all 3 cats to provide the same amount of auto-capacity on Rt 2 by providing more frequent, faster trips. Trucks and overheights were really meant to go to Rt 30, which I believe at the time had some capacity to spare. By the time the project was underway, it was known the C-Class were unsuitable for operation on Rt 1 (and we've had some recent discussion on here about a C-Class appearing here and there on Rt 1 through the late 80s, but never since). If the PacificCats had worked out, there would have been 2 spare C-Class, at least, in the summers, with no home. |
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Post by northwesterner on Jan 14, 2024 23:59:38 GMT -8
Not linked elsewhere in this thread is this very 90s promotional video for the Pacificat Project:
This video may have accompanied the display on the Pacificat Project at the Maritime Museum of British Columbia in Victoria, in the late 1990s.
While we know the project was ultimately a failure, and obviously this was meant to be an optimistic project for the gov't to improve the economy and infrastructure, what strikes me watching this is just the tone of "this is what's possible and we're going to do it."
British Columbia can't build new ferries, at all now. The next major vessel replacement project has been massively delayed. The Coastals are all limping along, without even a straight answer from BC Ferries regarding what is wrong and what it will take to fix it.
WSF is at an all time low, also can't build boats, has gone from meddling political leadership 15 years ago to neglectful leadership now.
I've spent 7 years in Los Angeles where there is zero sense our government can deliver on anything new.
And then I see this video... Just think about it. When was the last time you saw something like this, putting such an optimistic spin on a big infrastructure project?
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Post by donatotummillo on Jan 15, 2024 12:27:48 GMT -8
How would they done have refit to allow carry of over height vehicles? What would they have operated on? I don't know exactly what the definition of 'refit' is... but I don't think the term applied when the V class was sliced and raised horizontally to insert a second car deck. More of a rebuild, perhaps? In any event, given the overrun on the construction costs of the Pacificats, further surgery to give them overheight capacity would have been dreadfully expensive. Obviously it's a moot point now, but I still think they could have been employed just as car carriers. I personally still think they can be employed as just “car carriers” with passenger lounges, but I’m just dreaming at this point. |
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Post by inputrain on Jan 15, 2024 23:38:39 GMT -8
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Post by 1foot2ships on Jan 16, 2024 22:33:07 GMT -8
wow. awesome photos! but even more awesome the ones from the very first post on this thread. thnx @kahloke !
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Post by 1foot2ships on Jan 16, 2024 22:34:52 GMT -8
Feb 5, 2008 at 22:25 oceaneer77Feb 5, 2008 at 23:20 hergfestboth these posts had some really good points. anybody here current to the forum able to elaborate more? i searched this cause i was wondering how similar our boats are to the fastcats AMHS tried? theirs were constructed after us, so i assume they had all the opportunity to learn from our mistakes, yet final result (so far) still same? |
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Post by Kahloke on Jan 17, 2024 5:58:06 GMT -8
Feb 5, 2008 at 22:25 oceaneer77 Feb 5, 2008 at 23:20 hergfest both these posts had some really good points. anybody here current to the forum able to elaborate more? i searched this cause i was wondering how similar our boats are to the fastcats AMHS tried? theirs were constructed after us, so i assume they had all the opportunity to learn from our mistakes, yet final result (so far) still same? Our friend, EGFleet, has a nice write-up on Alaska's fast ferries. Yes, lots of similarities to the FastCats. Fairweather and Chenega never did fulfill the original mission planned for those ships, but unlike the FastCats, they remained in the AMHS fleet for quite a number of years and were used despite the state losing money on each and every trip. evergreenfleet.com/alaska-ferries/ |
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 17, 2024 11:09:54 GMT -8
Feb 5, 2008 at 22:25 oceaneer77 Feb 5, 2008 at 23:20 hergfest both these posts had some really good points. anybody here current to the forum able to elaborate more? i searched this cause i was wondering how similar our boats are to the fastcats AMHS tried? theirs were constructed after us, so i assume they had all the opportunity to learn from our mistakes, yet final result (so far) still same? Our friend, EGFleet, has a nice write-up on Alaska's fast ferries. Yes, lots of similarities to the FastCats. Fairweather and Chenega never did fulfill the original mission planned for those ships, but unlike the FastCats, they remained in the AMHS fleet for quite a number of years and were used despite the state losing money on each and every trip. evergreenfleet.com/alaska-ferries/Although I never had a ride on one of BC's fast cats I did travel from Sitka to Juneau, Alaska, on one of the AMHS fast cats (the Fairweather). They were much smaller than the BC vessels, carrying only about 40 vehicles. The Fairweather provided a comfortable travel experience, though my trip was over smooth summer seas. IMHO the Alaska fast cats did not have a whole lot in common with BC's fast cats. For more see the AMHS Fairweather pages on the WCFF here. |
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Post by Dane on Jan 18, 2024 13:35:18 GMT -8
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Post by donatotummillo on Jan 19, 2024 20:16:07 GMT -8
I bet you it was, there’s no way that’s a coincidence. |
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Post by inputrain on Jan 27, 2024 9:06:39 GMT -8
What corporation made the seats and neon lights on the fast cats?
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Post by inputrain on Jun 5, 2024 20:13:05 GMT -8
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