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Post by Low Light Mike on May 20, 2008 6:22:04 GMT -8
I would believe that most of the members of this forum are of a similar bent. Now, since the other threads I would have responded in have been locked, I have chosen to respond here. Me too. Similar bent, and I'm responding here. (note to my fellow moderators, let's keep this thread open, as I'd like to talk about this issue, as it's become pervasive on all the threads that Ruddernut participates in, so we might as well get some comments out into the open.....). Why are you getting so defensive and confrontational? This is likely going to be a big surprise Mr. Rudder, but "offensive and confrontational" is how your posts usually come across. I'm not exaggerating. Obviously that's not how you've intended yourself to be viewed. So either we are too sensitive, or perhaps there's something in your posting style that makes you appear offensive & confrontational. ps: the use of the word "offensive" is meant as opposite of "defensive", ie. pushing the issues in a "you must agree with me" manner, no? Does this make sense? Don't you think? Isn't it true? etc etc. Regardless of that, this has pretty much been the consistent reaction to your posts in all of your 3 tours-of-duty on this forum. And before we call this an "off topic" moment that I'm writing, consider that since these threads are clearly becoming your domain, a discussion of your style is appropriate here. Again, that's obviously not your intent, but that's how you're being perceived. No? Trust me, many forum members find your posting style annoying and irritating. Either we're all wrong, or you're doing something that brings up those feelings. Doesn't this concern you, that you're being perceived this way? Doesn't common sense dictate that you'd be interested to know how you're being perceived? Are you sure that this is the right forum for you to be participating in? Seriously, read BCinNJ's response (earlier in this thread) and see how you're being perceived. If your goal is to continue to act like a troll, then please find someplace else. If you really want to make these discussion-topics work, then please change your style. Thanks Bill, I know you'd see it our way, right?
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Post by ruddernut on May 20, 2008 9:03:25 GMT -8
I suspect that I'm not the only one who is wondering about some of the core belief that is emanating from member "Ruddernut". Let me be direct, and ask Mr. R. Nut some questions: - What is your belief re individual property rights? Except in the extreme incidents where the well-being of the populace is threatened, individual rights should be put first.- What is your belief re the state's right to trump individual property rights? Alright, now that I've stuck my neck out about individual property rights, I would say the state has the right to override the individual in the following circumstances: - If the common good is threatened, - If the benefit to the populace is greater than the loss to the individual, given the following stipulations...all avenues of compromise have been exhausted, it is approved by a majority of the populace (fundamentally I would like to see this as a majority of the population, not just the voting population, but one takes what one can get), and the individual is adequately compensated for the incurred loss. - It is not done just to capitalize on a situation and profit monetarily from it.- What are your basic political beliefs re big gov't vs small gov't? (ie. public everything, private everything, or something in between?) An efficient government of oversight with minimal direct regulation...given a set of laws strong enough to penalize those who choose not to play fair but with policies liberal enough to allow businesses and individuals to pursue their goals with out having to worry about someone telling them No at every turn. So, as small as feasibly possible to facilitate the governance of the nation as I have specified above, and including the items following:
Now for my exceptions to the rule...Strong social network - I grew up in Canada; I now live in the US - I see the differences. The welfare state and the redistribution of wealth to the needy is necessary...but I leave it to the masses to determine how much and who because, as has been pointed out before, if we are too aggressive in taxing the top to support the bottom, we take the chance of damaging the system.
I also believe schools are best funded and run by a government agency to ensure (hopefully) equal distribution of the right-to-education. I support the idea of local oversight committees populated by residents to ensure funds are distributed both by the general mandate established for such a system and as the community desires for discretionary funding.
Ditto for public works and utilities, though the day to day operations, and completion of projects are often more efficient when the actual work is completed by the private sector.
Health-care should be government regulated, and for this I believe strong regulation is required, though I'm on the fence about private/public provision of health insurance...there are advantages to both...I just want the best coverage and service possible at the lowest reasonable price. - What's your utopia for society in BC? Isn't it already? ;D- What's your agenda re public transportation discussions? For me this falls under the public works issue, though in some ways it is more discretionary spending and has many more significant social, economical and environmental implications. Like health-care, I'm on the fence on who is best to supply the actual service on this issue, too. Both public and private providers have their pros and cons. - How deeply-held or immovable are these core beliefs of yours? On the social net, schooling, and health-care, I'm pretty staunch on my beliefs constituting what we as a people should provide to ourselves. How we provide such services to each other is welcome for debate. For public works/transportation and utility discussions I would welcome all debate and ideas...I have my beliefs about where we as a world should be going with resource utilization and energy consumption, but how, why and when to fulfill said beliefs will always be up for public debate. lol...hopefully I don't sound too contradictory... The answers to these will help me in deciding how I should participate in forum discussions with you. In short, I need to decide whether you have any movement possibility in your core beliefs re transportation and property-rights, as this will impact the ability for me to have a productive discussion with you. Or do you just enjoy debating things for debate's sake, and not really care too much about the actual issue? Let's debate that question... Some background, please. Thanks. Flug, I answered above in red. Can I participate in discussions with you on the forum? ;D Yes, I made a point of answering Flugelhorn's question to ruddernut. Please take note of how I answered the question comprehensively so that other members knew what I meant, and intended to further the conversation in a constructive manner. I also backed up as much of the reasoning behind my beliefs as I could to the same end. Wow, imagine that...trust me, I welcome debate on issues, and if you hit me with well-thought-out arguments, I will evaluate them, point out the flaws I see as well as commend you on the valid points. Then I will adjust my thinking to reflect what I have learned from what was presented; I would believe that most of the members of this forum are of a similar bent. Believe it or not, I actually agree with just about everything that you wrote there. Admittedly, I'm not as good with words or brainstorming for all the fine points and details on the fly like you are, but at the same time, I might add that you're probably pushing excessive verbosity for casual conversation there. No offense.
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Post by ruddernut on May 20, 2008 9:16:11 GMT -8
I would believe that most of the members of this forum are of a similar bent. Now, since the other threads I would have responded in have been locked, I have chosen to respond here. Me too. Similar bent, and I'm responding here. (note to my fellow moderators, let's keep this thread open, as I'd like to talk about this issue, as it's become pervasive on all the threads that Ruddernut participates in, so we might as well get some comments out into the open.....). Why are you getting so defensive and confrontational? This is likely going to be a big surprise Mr. Rudder, but "offensive and confrontational" is how your posts usually come across. I'm not exaggerating. Obviously that's not how you've intended yourself to be viewed. So either we are too sensitive, or perhaps there's something in your posting style that makes you appear offensive & confrontational. ps: the use of the word "offensive" is meant as opposite of "defensive", ie. pushing the issues in a "you must agree with me" manner, no? Does this make sense? Don't you think? Isn't it true? etc etc. Actually, offensive and defensive go hand-in-hand. You know the saying "The best defense is a good offense." Regardless of that, this has pretty much been the consistent reaction to your posts in all of your 3 tours-of-duty on this forum. And before we call this an "off topic" moment that I'm writing, consider that since these threads are clearly becoming your domain, a discussion of your style is appropriate here. Again, that's obviously not your intent, but that's how you're being perceived. No? Trust me, many forum members find your posting style annoying and irritating. Either we're all wrong, or you're doing something that brings up those feelings. Doesn't this concern you, that you're being perceived this way? Doesn't common sense dictate that you'd be interested to know how you're being perceived? Are you sure that this is the right forum for you to be participating in? Seriously, read BCinNJ's response (earlier in this thread) and see how you're being perceived. If your goal is to continue to act like a troll, then please find someplace else. If you really want to make these discussion-topics work, then please change your style. Thanks Bill, I know you'd see it our way, right? Okay, I got you. I was just following the same discussion and debating standards that are the norm on most other boards that are populated with, presumably, a younger crowd. There's nothing wrong with the occasional jolt to liven up the action here, is there? And don't abrasive debates have a tendency to be interesting, or even entertaining as a spectator?
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 20, 2008 9:29:09 GMT -8
Well, must be the elitist in me... Actually, when I launch into a long diatribe or comment, I will often take several hours to think through what I am saying...words are chosen for their impact and intent. I also investigate what I am commenting on, clarifying in my own thought process before I post. Verbose - Using or containing a great and usually an excessive number of words; wordy. Hmmm...did you notice in my excessive verbosity I was making a point...maybe if you looked at my posting style you will see I only do this when I feel it necessary to give a complete picture of my thoughts. lol...and I'm hardly the only one guilty of excessive verbosity on this forum...sometimes we just have a lot to say in one post. Maintaining a clear theme, and presenting clear thoughts is much more important.
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Post by Northern Exploration on May 20, 2008 9:54:31 GMT -8
Younger crowd - well thank you. You may be surprized by the ages represented on this forum. Sure some of the younger members are the most active in number of posts and most active in their passion for ferries. However, age doesn't always equal intelligence nor quality of discussion. One would think but not often so. Many of the so called "younger posters" knowledge of the ferry and other worlds is pretty impressive. Posting just to stir things up is fine in my books, however when it takes on the combative edge that is not necessary. Good ideas that are well presented often can stand on their own. Poorly though out ideas often are accompanied by a smoke screen of bluff or bravado. This forum is quite the exception in terms of other forums. Rudeness and personal attacks are rare and not tolerated. I for one find it refreshing and wouldn't want to see it change. We should be mature enough (not only in age) to exchange ideas without putting people down. Good natured ribbing is fair play when someone knows how to do it without being offensive or crossing the line. I for one tease a lot and even more off the forum. And I hope everyone knows when I am kidding and appreciates it for that. Like BCinNJ is always extremely excessively verbose in an endearing obsessively compulsive way .
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 20, 2008 10:52:11 GMT -8
Ahh man, do you know how many days I'm going to have to spend in therapy over that comment... ;D
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Post by ruddernut on May 20, 2008 11:13:05 GMT -8
Younger crowd - well thank you. You may be surprized by the ages represented on this forum. Sure some of the younger members are the most active in number of posts and most active in their passion for ferries. However, age doesn't always equal intelligence nor quality of discussion. One would think but not often so. Many of the so called "younger posters" knowledge of the ferry and other worlds is pretty impressive. Posting just to stir things up is fine in my books, however when it takes on the combative edge that is not necessary. Good ideas that are well presented often can stand on their own. Poorly though out ideas often are accompanied by a smoke screen of bluff or bravado. This forum is quite the exception in terms of other forums. Rudeness and personal attacks are rare and not tolerated. I for one find it refreshing and wouldn't want to see it change. We should be mature enough (not only in age) to exchange ideas without putting people down. Good natured ribbing is fair play when someone knows how to do it without being offensive or crossing the line. I for one tease a lot and even more off the forum. And I hope everyone knows when I am kidding and appreciates it for that. Like BCinNJ is always extremely excessively verbose in an endearing obsessively compulsive way . I actually like the more colourful community and varieties of people you would get if these rules were relaxed. It would be more inviting to the more casual ferry fans, as opposed to the core of "geeks", and the number of regular posters might expand beyond that we can count with our hands, not to mention the types of people. Should we strive to be a more mainstream forum?
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 20, 2008 11:38:29 GMT -8
In all seriousness, maybe you should re-read what you just wrote, re-read what flugelhorn, northern exploration, politically incorrectness, myself and others have written...then weigh what the response of the majority is likely to be, and consider the obvious question... Personally, I don't think this forum has any problem attracting new members, and the ones who truly want to be here find their niche and become part of the community.
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Post by lmtengs on Nov 28, 2009 20:39:42 GMT -8
My DREAM ferry route is from Maple Ridge (Albion Dock) to Fort Langley, served by the MV Klatawa and the MV Kulleet. Hmmph.
My other dream route is from the Albion Dock to Prince Rupert.
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Post by DENelson83 on Nov 29, 2009 19:10:31 GMT -8
Karl already mentioned one idea I've thought about - that is Horseshoe Bay or Tsawwassen to Comox. Comox/Courtenay are booming towns and I don't think Departure Bay can handle much more traffic, even if the terminal is improved. Maybe they could even do a morning and evening stop-over at Lasqueti Island on the way:) Heck, why not? There would no longer be a need for me to drive down to Nanaimo to get to Vancouver. But just look out for the NIMBYs on Anderton Road. Edit: Yes, yes, I know that post was more than 2½ years ago, but I only just now noticed it.
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Post by lmtengs on Nov 29, 2009 20:14:49 GMT -8
Karl already mentioned one idea I've thought about - that is Horseshoe Bay or Tsawwassen to Comox. Comox/Courtenay are booming towns and I don't think Departure Bay can handle much more traffic, even if the terminal is improved. Maybe they could even do a morning and evening stop-over at Lasqueti Island on the way:) Heck, why not? There would no longer be a need for me to drive down to Nanaimo to get to Vancouver. But just look out for the NIMBYs on Anderton Road. I totally agree with this Horseshoe Bay to Comox idea. I go there at least 3 times each year, so right there, that's one person who's gonna use it! What vessel would they use on this route though? They don't have any surplus major vessels at the moment, as far as I know... (not saying any names, **cough**saanich**cough cough** vancouver**cough** ;D ) Edit: Yes, yes, I know that post was more than 2½ years ago, but I only just now noticed it. That happens to EVERYONE sometimes. Don't sweat it! ;D
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Koastal Karl
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Post by Koastal Karl on Nov 30, 2009 9:46:28 GMT -8
I still think Tsawwassen to Comox would be a good route and Tsawwassen to Port Hardy and Swartz Bay to Horseshoe Bay!
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Post by lmtengs on Nov 30, 2009 16:58:06 GMT -8
Here's the route from Horseshoe to Little River EDIT: excuse that tag mentioning Savary Island
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Post by DENelson83 on Dec 1, 2009 0:19:31 GMT -8
Or it could go through Malaspina Strait.
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Post by lmtengs on Dec 1, 2009 7:32:50 GMT -8
Or it could go through Malaspina Strait. Wouldn't that take longer? I'm thinking yes because: A) at the North end, they would need to make a huge turn to enter/exit the strait, and that slows down the ship. and B) Malaspina Strait is narrower, meaning more pleasure-craft dodging.
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Post by DENelson83 on Dec 1, 2009 10:39:35 GMT -8
And there's also the little obstacle every mariner here on the coast knows all too well as "Area Whiskey Golf".
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Post by lmtengs on Dec 1, 2009 11:28:13 GMT -8
And there's also the little obstacle every mariner here on the coast knows all too well as "Area Whiskey Golf". When you say Whiskey Golf... I think you mean that in phonetic Alphabet... but... what and where is the Whiskey Golf (or WG?)
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 1, 2009 11:37:13 GMT -8
And there's also the little obstacle every mariner here on the coast knows all too well as "Area Whiskey Golf". It's not a perpetual obstacle as it is not in use each day of the year, only on days when tropedo useage is undertaken (such events are sent via Notices to Mariners (NOTMAR) and via radio broadcast). It is a bit south of the route shown on the map. The route itself shown is not specific piloting. Once off the coast of Bowen Island, the route would take a line of sight to Lasqueti Island, following a few miles north of the course taken by cruise ships and other vessels, well to the north of WG, then passing with Sisters Light on the starboard hand, such as in this example: This is more inline with the route taken by cruise ships, since they use Bowen Island as a mark when starting the cruise out of First Narrows. From Sisters, the route continues northwest to end at Little River. That's a pretty long route. What would that be, time-wise, with the ferries BCF has today - 4 1/2 hours, maybe?
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Post by lmtengs on Dec 1, 2009 11:44:25 GMT -8
That's a pretty long route. What would that be, time-wise, with the ferries BCF has today - 4 1/2 hours, maybe? I'd say 3 1/2. It's about two and one third times as long as route 2, which generally takes between an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 1, 2009 12:06:50 GMT -8
I'm glad this thread title refers to 'dream' routes, because this one has very little basis in reality.
As Viking mentioned, it's well over twice the distance of route 2, so we're looking at a crossing of three and a half hours. For most of its length, it would parallel the island highway, with the difference being that you could drive the same distance three or four times as fast. With what BC Ferries would have to charge to make any money on it, even my eight cylinder pig car could get me to Courtenay considerably cheaper.
Since it parallels a highway, there would be no federal subsidy, and the province certainly wouldn't kick in for such an unnecessary route, so BC Ferries would be left to promote it as a purely tourist venture. Given the fact it would be sailing up the middle of the strait, that would have very limited potential.
So... dream on.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 1, 2009 12:47:21 GMT -8
Or with using one of the smaller ferries, a day cruise from Campbell River, poking around the Discovery Islands, and then ending up in Port McNeil during the summer. A little ferry such as the Nimpkish would be a good choice for a route such as that one or one of the slightler larger ones such as the Tachek or Tenaka. I like that idea, although the Nimpkish would be a terrible choice, given its lack of passenger space. Tenaka has three lounges, with room for a small coffee bar. Marine Link runs a freight/cruise operation into the Broughton archipelago, and I believe it runs pretty much full through the season. Yes, a run through the Discovery Islands north to Port MacNeill, with decent passenger capacity and amenities, and an opportunity to carry a couple of dozen cars, might have some tourist potential, done on a modest scale. Beautiful country, perhaps under served currently.
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Kam
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Post by Kam on Dec 1, 2009 13:38:24 GMT -8
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Post by Nickfro on Dec 1, 2009 14:25:15 GMT -8
Here's the route from Horseshoe to Little River And there's also the little obstacle every mariner here on the coast knows all too well as "Area Whiskey Golf". It's not a perpetual obstacle as it is not in use each day of the year, only on days when tropedo useage is undertaken (such events are sent via Notices to Mariners (NOTMAR) and via radio broadcast). It is a bit south of the route shown on the map. The route itself shown is not specific piloting. Once off the coast of Bowen Island, the route would take a line of sight to Lasqueti Island, following a few miles north of the course taken by cruise ships and other vessels, well to the north of WG, then passing with Sisters Light on the starboard hand, such as in this example: This is more inline with the route taken by cruise ships, since they use Bowen Island as a mark when starting the cruise out of First Narrows. From Sisters, the route continues northwest to end at Little River. I would lobby to take Sabine Channel from Horseshoe Bay to Comox for this fictitious route. After all, that's the primary route the cruise ships take between Vancouver and Campbell River en route to Alaska. The route that you guys show in your maps would be more plausible from Tsawwassen, but that would add another unnecessary hour or so onto the voyage.
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Post by lmtengs on Dec 1, 2009 15:45:25 GMT -8
I'm glad this thread title refers to 'dream' routes, because this one has very little basis in reality. As Viking mentioned, it's well over twice the distance of route 2, so we're looking at a crossing of three and a half hours. For most of its length, it would parallel the island highway, with the difference being that you could drive the same distance three or four times as fast. With what BC Ferries would have to charge to make any money on it, even my eight cylinder pig car could get me to Courtenay considerably cheaper. Since it parallels a highway, there would be no federal subsidy, and the province certainly wouldn't kick in for such an unnecessary route, so BC Ferries would be left to promote it as a purely tourist venture. Given the fact it would be sailing up the middle of the strait, that would have very limited potential. So... dream on. I think this route would actually be quite popular, because only to people living Southern Van Isle does it run parallel to a highway. If you're a Vancouverite or from anywhere else on the coast, It would be quite popular (imho) for anyone travelling the the Comox Valley, Campbell river, or anywhere further north like Port Hardy, the Northern G. Islands, or Prince Rupert (via northern ferry). During the winter this route would be especially popular. Nobody wants to drive hwy 19 when it's snowing. If there's even a centimetre of snow on the road, travel time almost doubles, increasing the Horseshoe bay-departure bay- courtney via hwy 19 almost 4 hours. The rates wouldn't be much different on this "new" route, and it would be a MUCH safer alternative to the Island Hwy. Maybe it could run as a winter only route, since that's when Horseshoe bay is least crowded (and when it would be faster and safer), then during the summer, whichever ship runs that route could run route 1. [glow=red,2,300]NOTE: From now on, I'm going to call our imaginary ferry route from comox to Horshoe bay "route 95" [/glow]
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Post by fargowolf on Dec 1, 2009 16:41:24 GMT -8
My dream route:
It would be from Kelsy Bay to Kitimat This would be a great second route up the Inside Passage and would provide a unique round trip for tourists. Port Hardy to Prince Rupert one way, Kitimat to Kelsey Bay the other.
It also has the advantage of providing alternate terminals if, for whatever reason, ferries couldn't use Port Hardy or Prince Rupert.
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