Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 18, 2023 17:39:40 GMT -8
A few posts back, I said that I thought Hornby had a k class vessel in summer by maybe 1980, but looking at the summer '85 schedule, it says that Hornby has a 16 car vessel, which would have been the 'Savoie. Maybe that's wrong, or maybe I was wrong. In any event, that have been the very last of the 'Savoie's summer service there.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 15, 2023 22:22:34 GMT -8
Rough sailing for Hullo this weekend.
Minor weather damage? Lots of logs out there the last week. If I were to speculate that's the first culprit I'd be looking at. I haven't followed Hullo closely but has anyone seen how these vessels handle beam seas (which they will see a lot of for 6 months of the year)? I spent a year relieving on a catamaran (the venerable North Island Princess) and they are special animals when it comes to swell... I have no horse in this race but the word "reliability" is being thrown around a lot on this forum and on the street - even among "normies". I love the basic idea of harbour to harbour transit but if customers are having plans scuttled routinely then the business model begins to fall apart. I'm reminded of off-season flights from Comox to Vancouver Harbour with Harbour Air when I was a Cadet at BCIT - I tried to take advantage of this on multiple occasions but only made it to my intended destination 1/4 of the time. I don't think they bother in the winter anymore. Anyway, if these guys are going to survive they'll need to crack that code, regardless of how deep their pockets are. In regards to the drydocking of the other vessel - I have some sympathy as a Master of several Damen built Island Class vessels over the last three years. Part of the deal from the shipyard is customer support when the ships enter service. The shipping company, whether it be BCF or Hullo will want to take full advantage of that while the ships are under warranty. October/November for an out of service period actually makes sense... until your single other vessel is sidelined. I've been really cynical about cross-strait passenger services, but I've been more willing to sit back and cut this latest venture some slack. But... your perspective carries some weight, and we'll see if their model, and the reliability of their schedule, earns Hullo a long term role in getting people from Nanaimo to the mainland and back.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 14, 2023 22:57:26 GMT -8
If the Cumberland or the Salish were to break now, who else would do the route? Legally Skeena Queen, and / or Quinsam. After getting the opinion of BC Ferries' legal counsel, I presume?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 14, 2023 21:08:34 GMT -8
Tachek is in my notes from '91-'99 as the #3 boat on Route 5, with Nicola as the spare to Tachek for that entire decade more or less. That is from BC Ferries' annual reports of the time. That's got to be a pretty rare assignment - cool photo catch. I was looking for a scanned timetable from that era on here but I couldn't find one. It was a pretty limited schedule of service, peak days only, I believe. When Bowen Queen began operating route 9a that effectively replaced the slot for the #3 boat on route 5, right? Route five had a lot of minor vessels subbing in from one time to another, in a variety of limited roles. The Vesuvius Queen did runs between Swartz, Fulford and Otter Bay, and in the mid '80s, the slowpoke Quinitsa joined in. I can't imagine that the Nicola ever was more than an emergency option. Still... from a tiresome old guy/ferry fan's perspective, weren't those times more interesting? Now you've got nothing more than the efficient ' Cumberland/Salish class combo, delivering needed capacity. Phooey, and double phooey.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 12, 2023 22:43:20 GMT -8
Albert J. Savoie c1986 - photographer unknown (Capt Bob Gentles collection) The location for this photo is likely the run between Denman & Hornby Islands where this vessel spent much of its working life. It looks like it was fitted with a "mouth retainer", do you know anything about that, Neil ?
I'm afraid I don't. I started going to Hornby regularly around 1980, and I think even by then the ' Savoie was just the winter vessel. Didn't ride her much. My most vivid memory was a wild return trip to Cortes when she was still a Highways vessel, and they didn't cancel sailings unless things were really dangerous.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 12, 2023 22:36:05 GMT -8
For A successful retail outlet it is dependent on “location, location, location”. For a transportation operation for which there are alternatives, “reliabilty, reliability, reliability” should be paramount. Hulo is failing badly. How long has the vessel with “the issue” been sitting around without repair work being carried out, weeks I am told. Hulo must get their act together, and soon. Most reports I've seen indicate that Hullo's passenger count is pretty healthy for most sailings. That being said, they operate fairly small vessels that are prone to getting bounced around on rough weather crossings. This is a new venture that I'm pretty intrigued by, and their chance of success isn't really going to be clear for a while yet. The fact that BC Ferries puts so many people off with frequent cancellations with their huge vessels might cause Hullo's clientele to cut them more slack than you're willing to. Time will tell. One thing that distinguishes this venture from previous efforts- they apparently have the financial resources to really give the market a proper test over time.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 10, 2023 22:44:06 GMT -8
BC Ferries' minor vessel M/V Klitsa - circa 1990 - location & photographer unknown (Capt Bob Gentles collection). This vessel served for many years on the Chemainus - Thetis - Penelakut Islands route.
I got this photo from a friend who in turn got it from the widow of a one-time BCF Captain named Bob Gentles. At the time he retired he was given a photo montage of all the vessels he had served on. We don't know the origin of these photos or who was the photographer. Perhaps someone here might know ... They may have come from the BCF corporate office. I will be posting more photos of other vessels, all from the Expo livery years.
I'm wondering if the land in the background is too low to be Denman. I do remember that before Kahloke became the regular Hornby ferry, a smaller K class boat was on the run in summer. Also, Hornby photographer Bob Cain has a huge cache of ferry photos, many of them chronicling Denman and Hornby boats. He shows Klatawa on the Denman run sometime in the mid '80s. www.rcainphoto.com/category/hornby-island-scenics/ferries/
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 9, 2023 22:19:11 GMT -8
For those of you who have traveled on Hullo, did you receive an email to do a survey? I received one today. I suggested that they use their social media better for informing their clientele about sailing cancellations, etc. instead of gladhanding. I'm not clear on your meaning, here... has Hullo been cancelling sailings with no prior warning?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 6, 2023 21:03:00 GMT -8
Sad news to report this past weekend. The R.J. Breadner sank in Sechelt Inlet the evening of November 4th. Article from: The PeakOh my... that is sad. I can't find it right now, but the Hornby Island history book has a picture of Albert Savoie being presented with a cake in the shape of that vessel, maybe at his retirement. The Albert J. Savoie took over from the Lorraine S., which had been built by the Savoies, at Phipps Point, on the island. She represented quite an improvement in service; from six to sixteen cars capacity. I don't know if she had a regular route after Hornby. She may have been a relief vessel.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 29, 2023 19:50:41 GMT -8
I think part of the reason this is rightly a relevant topic is that these three are major vessels, which creates an environment where mechanical failures are far higher profile than similar failures on other ships. They are additionally vulnerable by the fact that there is no 'spare ratio' for the major fleet, meaning that any mechanical issue that results in the ship being unable to sail, results directly in lost service until the ship is back online. Media outlets in Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo and elsehwere have been tuned to these failures, and report on them. However they are far less likely to report on sailing cancelations of, say, the Tachek, unless there was some event of significance that had ripple effects across the system. Issues with the Coastals have been making news here in Prince George, which tells you something. These three ships carry a substantial portion of traffic between some of the provinces largest urban centres and the public has a fair expectation that they should be reliable. I think that, in hindsight, BCF will be reviewing some of the asset management decisions with regard to the major fleet, and hopefully try to move forward on a plan where we have a fleet with greater resilience. This is a really difficult topic for laypeople like us to comment on knowingly. Two points that Dane makes are: We don't know what commitment BC Ferries has to regular maintenance, and, the problems that the Coastals have been prone to are perhaps more directed at manufacturers/suppliers of Coastal engineering systems than the shipbuilder. We don't know that. Flensburger did become insolvent a few years ago. Perhaps that was a result of covid, or competition from Asian yards. Or problems with their newbuilds? I have no idea. Ships break down. Hullo has had their teething problems. WSF, AMHS, and countless other marine passenger systems let their customers down on a regular basis. BC Ferries has regular breakdowns, in vessels new and old. I don't know if this is due to poor building, poor maintenance, and perhaps there's a misguided public expectation about the performance of heavily used vessels in marine environments? I know that the last few years, I've had little faith that my reservation was actually going to get me where I need to go, when I need to be there. Whether it's crew shortages, weather, or breakdowns, we can't count on BC Ferries, and it's food for thought as to why.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 27, 2023 11:23:44 GMT -8
From the article: Schedule-writing is a long-term process and one hampered by the fact that since June, the WSF’s single position for planning schedules has been vacant. They’re advertising the job, Rodero said, but it’s a niche role that few people have the skills to take on.... but some ferry fans will tell you differently. "Hey, won't don't they just move this boat here, and that boat there, and add more sailings?"
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 26, 2023 17:38:52 GMT -8
Why don’t just keep the Coastal Inspiration on route 1 until the Coastal Celebration is fully fixed? I wonder what caused temporary routing this time for Coastal Celebration. Good point! Not really sure, their statement: “While the vessel is safe to operate, we are taking action as a precautionary safety measure to guard against the unlikely event of a propulsion failure in the confined waters of Active Pass,” the corporation said in a statement. “B.C. Ferries knows customers’ time is valuable and apologizes for any inconvenience this may cause.” I see that the schedule hasn't as yet been changed to accommodate a two hour and fifteen minute turn around time.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 25, 2023 20:26:48 GMT -8
With the service notice expiring, your post doesn't tell us much... what was going on?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 24, 2023 19:30:49 GMT -8
BC Ferries service notices for Sturdies Bay:
"Due to adverse weather and unsafe docking conditions at Sturdies Bay (Galiano Island), the Salish Eagle was unable to stop as scheduled at Sturdies Bay this evening. The 5:45 pm departure from Sturdies Bay to Tsawwasen has been cancelled."
Another service notice:
"Due to adverse weather and unsafe docking conditions at Sturdies Bay (Galiano Island), the following Queen of Cumberland sailings have been cancelled for today, Tuesday October 24:
6:05 pm departing Sturdies Bay"
I have never seen a service notice like this before, why only Sturdies Bay?
Environment Canada is reporting winds at Saturna ENE 58k gusting to 76k. This cancellation is not all that rare. Sturdies is pretty exposed for docking purposes.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 22, 2023 20:15:04 GMT -8
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Post by Neil on Oct 21, 2023 19:39:08 GMT -8
Okay, so it's Saturday evening, and the Saltspring based route nine vessel, currently the Salish Eagle, is sitting at Tsawwassen for the usual four and a half hour layover, I believe to facilitate refueling. I guess my question is to our long time member, Chris, 'Ferryman', who I'm pretty sure has a fair bit of history on that route. What does the crew do for the evening? Are there regularly scheduled maintenance chores? And how does the crewing work? I know there's a morning and afternoon shift on that route when it does just two round trips out of Long Harbour. The Saturday afternoon shift would be a really long one, with the layover. Is crew change on Sunday?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 19, 2023 21:23:02 GMT -8
Wow... red funnels, zero apparent rust, pristine car deck... is this what she's actually had done to her, or is this just some photoshop magic? I really doubt any owner would invest so much work and paint to sell a vessel like the Tenaka, at this price...
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 19, 2023 16:37:23 GMT -8
Just for interest sake some might like to have a look at our thread we have for Royal Sealink which connected Vancouver with Victoria & Nanaimo using three boats. This was 30 years ago. The Vic-Van transit time was 2 hours & 30 minutes; to Nanaimo 65 minutes. They had their Vancouver base steps away from the Waterfront SeaBus Terminal.
Thanks for posting these, WC.
I'm blanking on what the reason was for Royal Sealink's failure? Lack of ridership? Mechanical?
For some reason I thought Royal Sealink used hydrofoils, not jet propelled catamarans.
Nick, I've got a Vancouver Province article from September 24th, 1993, and the headline is, Poor summer sinks ferrySealinks's 19-month struggle nears endSome of the reasons given for its demise: -Very low passenger counts; 25% capacity in winter, only rising to 38% in summer. -January startup, meaning that nineteen months in, they only had one higher revenue season, and were facing their second low season. -Poor summer weather in 1993. -Unwillingness of the Feds to waive the import duty on their three vessels. -Collision in fog in Active Pass with a BC Ferry; the article didn't say how expensive that was. -Competition, for example BC Air dropping fares to pretty much match Sealink's. Sealink started with a $40 fare to Victoria, but discounts meant they were often charging only $20. Right below this article was another one detailing how a rival Norwegian based company, Ulstein Maritime, was mulling over getting into the BC passenger ferry market. I don't know if they ever did. -
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 18, 2023 18:04:03 GMT -8
Wow. Zero food service on a route one sailing. Wonder how many times that's ever happened? It’s better to have sailing instead of food. Well... obviously... but that doesn't negate my question.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 18, 2023 16:51:53 GMT -8
Wow. Zero food service on a route one sailing. Wonder how many times that's ever happened?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 15, 2023 19:17:06 GMT -8
I seriously doubt Washington State Ferries will lease a vessel. I could be wrong on that, but as SS San Mateo noted, there's more than one issue here. Lack of vessels, sure, but also lack of crew. They're having a hard time manning vessels as it is. FYI, I moved all posts regarding this news article into this thread as it pertains directly to this route. This CHEK News article is really dodgy. It refers to a statement from the mayor of Sidney about WSF's intentions, but it doesn't quote him directly when he supposedly talks about leasing a new vessel. So maybe they're misquoting him, or maybe he's mischaracterizing what he was told by WSF. I doubt that WSF makes money from the Anacortes- Sidney route, and it's difficult to believe that they would prioritize its reinstatement, given the challenges they face in maintaining ferry services for Washingtonians who have to get from point A to B for work or pleasure, within the state.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 14, 2023 18:08:00 GMT -8
You're dreaming. Current vessels, when tide and wind are favorable, can do route 30 in 110 minutes. I don't think you realize how much fuel would be burned getting a 320 car ferry across the route in ninety minutes, even if the engines could produce such a speed, which I doubt. Let's keep things in the realm of possibility. If Queen of Alberni could do Departure Bay to Tsawwassen in 2 hours maybe even 1 hours & 50 minutes, I think route 30 sailing could be reduce by 20 minutes because maybe the Captain was going for speed. I was even on Coastal that manage do route 30 in 1 hour & 40 minutes and this was April of 2022. You're confusing maximum capacity/almost freak show performance with what can reasonably and economically be done over a regular service model. Engines incur much more wear and tear being pushed to the maximum, and fuel costs soar. Sorry, but you're not being realistic.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 14, 2023 17:26:37 GMT -8
I hope this doesn't happen, and customer pressure beings back service on Route 2 with a third boat. The use of Route 30 led to an overall reduction in sailings, and is just a horrific route for transit. While I do hope BC Transit starts serving Duke Point, even when they do it'll be a terrible place to have to serve. Urban transit doesn't do great with low density areas with occasional very high volumes of passengers. I think future demand for routes 3 and 8 might BC Ferries require the elimination of route 2 all together because I don’t think Horseshoe Bay could get addition berth to handle all vessels coming in out of Horseshoe Bay. I think BC Ferries should really address capacity for Metro Vancouver to Nanaimo with capacity study sooner than later which I could show route 30 as better route due it having easier way of getting major services enhance because Tsawwassen and Duke Point have so much room to expand for operations. I don’t think Horseshoe Bay and Departure Bay terminals are easily expanded due community backlash if BC Ferries tries to expand the foot print of terminals so elimination of route 2 and major service enhance on route 30 will most likely best option for major shareholders and I could see BC Ferries trying to maintain 100 minutes sailing times from Metro Vancouver and Nanaimo even possibly going to down 90 minutes sailing time with faster sailing speeds of Coastal and Queen of Alberni. I don’t know if Queen of Cowichan, Queen of Oak Bay, Queen of Coquitlam and Queen of New Westminster could do route 30 under 2 hours but the replace vessels could go 23 knots. You're dreaming. Current vessels, when tide and wind are favorable, can do route 30 in 110 minutes. I don't think you realize how much fuel would be burned getting a 320 car ferry across the route in ninety minutes, even if the engines could produce such a speed, which I doubt. Let's keep things in the realm of possibility.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 14, 2023 16:59:29 GMT -8
I hope this doesn't happen, and customer pressure beings back service on Route 2 with a third boat. The use of Route 30 led to an overall reduction in sailings, and is just a horrific route for transit. While I do hope BC Transit starts serving Duke Point, even when they do it'll be a terrible place to have to serve. Urban transit doesn't do great with low density areas with occasional very high volumes of passengers. I am with you on this Dane 100%. BCFS first took away route 2's Coastal class vessel. Then they took away the third vessel. I have to wonder if they have an agenda? The one thing that might make this 'agenda' more palatable is if the provincial government were to beef up transit connections in Nanaimo both to Hullo, and to Duke Point. I don't think the agenda is any more than trying to deal with the operational limitations of the Horseshoe Bay terminal, particularly with increased summer sailings. If they had been able to staff the second route 30 boat full time this past summer, there would have been no lost sailings, but unfortunately Nanaimo service did suffer. Didn't BC Transit try serving Duke Point for a brief time? Pretty sure somebody did. If BC Ferries is really serious about shifting traffic to route thirty, they're going to have to run more than eight round trips year round, and work with BC Transit to make Duke Point more viable for foot passengers. But that's actually a bigger issue, because there needs to be a broader transit plan connecting the east coast of Vancouver Island, not just city services. People need to know they can walk onto a ferry at Tsawwassen, get off at Duke Point, and get to Nanaimo, Courtenay, or Campbell River, ideally on one bus.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 14, 2023 12:32:47 GMT -8
It would be good to add on a second birth at Duke Point. From what I've heard they were supposed to build a second one there but the project never went through. Looking at it from above, it certainly looks like infrastructure was built to accommodate a second berth. That begs the question though (and I believe it has been brought up on this forum before), if they want to have a Langdale-type berth or "hammerhead," isn't Northumberland Channel a bit tight for the 180° turn that would be required to use what would become berth 2? Update: it seems that, in fact, Duke Point was built to accommodate two additional berths. Reference the bottom left of this image. (Credit to Ferryman for this, I found it in a very old post of his.) There's ample room for a full turn into a berth that would face the opposite direction; the ' New Westminster has always done it when on the run.
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