MV Hyak

[Deleted]

The Hyak will be on the Seattle-Bremerton from December 31 to January 28. Than on Edmonds - Kingston from January 28 to February 11.

[rusty]

...and then the hybrid Hyak project?

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2012 18:55:02 GMT -8 rusty said:

...and then the hybrid Hyak project?

I think it could take place in 2014 while she gets a Mid-life upgrade and a new interior.

[chief]

There is no money for a interior renovation. The hybrid project costs 12 million at low end in 2012 dollars. The interior job would double that because the passenger decks are being held togther by the asbestos containing floor tiles. Beneath the tiles and especially in the restrooms, there needs to be a significant amount of steel inserted. Once the tile is up, all the bad steel must be removed, there is no choosing where to stop.

She is a pandora's box for a guy with a small budget like WSF has.

They Hyak should be scrapped when the power plant gives it up.

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2012 16:54:00 GMT -8 chief said:

There is no money for a interior renovation. The hybrid project costs 12 million at low end in 2012 dollars.

I don't think that is completely correct. Correct me if I am wrong but according to what I have been hearing and reading WSF has separate funds set aside for an interior renovation. They are asking for a grant for funds on top of that to go ahead with the hybrid project.
From the "Hyak Hybrid Ferry Propulsion Project" draft
"WSF has federal funds currently available for the preservation and refurbishment of the MV Hyak, but at the existing level does not fully fund the project considered in this application."

Found here: tinyurl.com/b63lbvq

[chief]

The WSF Preservation Budget is not a grant application.

[Deleted]

I read somewhere that Washington state Legislature has put a side $20 million to give the Hyak a mid- life upgrade and a new interior.

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2012 18:16:10 GMT -8 chief said:

The WSF Preservation Budget is not a grant application.

I understand that. The Preservation Budget is money WSF has set aside for her interior upgrade which it states they already have. The grant application is for the hybrid project.

[EGfleet]

Nov 14, 2012 16:54:00 GMT -8 chief said:

There is no money for a interior renovation. The hybrid project costs 12 million at low end in 2012 dollars. The interior job would double that because the passenger decks are being held togther by the asbestos containing floor tiles. Beneath the tiles and especially in the restrooms, there needs to be a significant amount of steel inserted. Once the tile is up, all the bad steel must be removed, there is no choosing where to stop.

She is a pandora's box for a guy with a small budget like WSF has.

They Hyak should be scrapped when the power plant gives it up.

I've been wondering of late if we're at the tipping point with the Hyak yet, where the cost to replace her is equal to or even slightly under the cost of refurbishing her. As noted above, I have an ugly feeling that once they open her up, all sorts of problems are going manifest themselves which will drive the cost of redoing her up and up and up, similar to what happened with the Rhody.

I had a feeling that was going to happen when her rehab got canceled back in the late 1990's.

[chief]

Yes, the Hyak is what they call a constructive total loss. If it were in a fender bender your insurance company would write it off.

The Hyak has been scheduled for renovation twice in the last 20 years. The first time was in the early 90s as part of the same renovation the Elwha got. The control system was actually purchased and sitting in the a warehouse. Fortunately that one was cancelled.

The second time was when the Kaleetan and Yakima were in line ahead of it. The Hyak was cancelled because the the 144s were being planned and she was considered too far gone because of the deterioration found in the Yakima and Kaleetan.

The Hyak is on the renovation list now because of a political decision in the Governor's office, not because the ship is in good shape. The deal now is the Governor asked WSF to find a renovation for Hyak that could be done for 10 to 15 million. Her goal was to avoid building all of those new 144s which were originally on the books (4).

Built in Washington, the new 144 costs about 140 million dollars. The state can't afford to build 4 in this state. That would be 600 million dollars.

The state could easily afford to build four of them in a nationally advertised contract in which the federal government participated. That would cost our state about 60 million. But would be politically difficult for her to argue for (until she explained how the cost savings can save the future of the WSF).

So now we come back to the constructive total loss. The Hyak could be replaced for about 15 to 20 million in a national contract as I described. According to WSF the ship needs nearly 40 million dollars in repairs and this investment would only last 20 years. Fourty million dollars is more than the entire vessel preservation budget in some recent bienniums. Dumping it all into Hyak means nothing is left for the rest of the fleet for two years.

If the state did make this unwise investment into the Hyak the renovated ship would still consume more fuel and have a larger crew than the 144 class ship it would replace it with. The state would continue to bleed money through the operating budget (meaning higher ticket prices and lower employee compensation) until they do scrap it.

The Hyak is worth more dead than alive. The only good renovating the Hyak provides to anyone is to the shipyard workers from Portland who now drive up to Vigor shipyard to work during the week.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2012 15:18:15 GMT -8 chief said:

Yes, the Hyak is what they call a constructive total loss. If it were in a fender bender your insurance company would write it off.

The Hyak has been scheduled for renovation twice in the last 20 years. The first time was in the early 90s as part of the same renovation the Elwha got. The control system was actually purchased and sitting in the a warehouse. Fortunately that one was cancelled.

The second time was when the Kaleetan and Yakima were in line ahead of it. The Hyak was cancelled because the the 144s were being planned and she was considered too far gone because of the deterioration found in the Yakima and Kaleetan.

The Hyak is on the renovation list now because of a political decision in the Governor's office, not because the ship is in good shape. The deal now is the Governor asked WSF to find a renovation for Hyak that could be done for 10 to 15 million. Her goal was to avoid building all of those new 144s which were originally on the books (4).

Built in Washington, the new 144 costs about 140 million dollars. The state can't afford to build 4 in this state. That would be 600 million dollars.

The state could easily afford to build four of them in a nationally advertised contract in which the federal government participated. That would cost our state about 60 million. But would be politically difficult for her to argue for (until she explained how the cost savings can save the future of the WSF).

So now we come back to the constructive total loss. The Hyak could be replaced for about 15 to 20 million in a national contract as I described. According to WSF the ship needs nearly 40 million dollars in repairs and this investment would only last 20 years. Fourty million dollars is more than the entire vessel preservation budget in some recent bienniums. Dumping it all into Hyak means nothing is left for the rest of the fleet for two years.

If the state did make this unwise investment into the Hyak the renovated ship would still consume more fuel and have a larger crew than the 144 class ship it would replace it with. The state would continue to bleed money through the operating budget (meaning higher ticket prices and lower employee compensation) until they do scrap it.

The Hyak is worth more dead than alive. The only good renovating the Hyak provides to anyone is to the shipyard workers from Portland who now drive up to Vigor shipyard to work during the week.

I think they build 8 Olympic Class instead of seven. I think the mid- life upgrade and a new interior would be a waste of money for a 45 year old vessel. But in 2028 she would be the standby vessel if she gets a mid- life upgrade and a new interior.

[chief]

A spare Super in 2028? For how long?

For the sake of argument, why not use Kaleetan or Yakima for the spare vessel, they have been renovated and have new interiors already? Or an Issaquah that will be 50 years old but much cheaper to operate? Or a Jumbo MKI which will be 60 and useless except as the relief vessel for the four remaining jumbos?

Renovating the Hyak makes no sense at all. It is a line item in the "waste, fraud and abuse" part of the state budget.

[chokai]

Nov 15, 2012 17:41:23 GMT -8 chief said:

A spare Super in 2028? For how long?

For the sake of argument, why not use Kaleetan or Yakima for the spare vessel, they have been renovated and have new interiors already? Or an Issaquah that will be 50 years old but much cheaper to operate? Or a Jumbo MKI which will be 60 and useless except as the relief vessel for the four remaining jumbos?

Well provided that the 60 year schedule is stuck to whatever boat was in maintenance reserve at that time would not have to last long. The Jumbos would be due for replacement within the next 5 to 6 years from that date. Of course that *assumes* certain things. ;-)

Really frankly speculating on the specific boat to be around in 2030 I think is a little un-realistic and I think it's silly that the long range plan called it out the Hyak. I mean after we could have a recurrence of that wonderful snowstorm that trashed the Elwha. ;-) I'd just say "a super" and that would likely be whichever is in the best shape around then. That said I'm partial to Yakima and hope she makes it.

[chokai]

Nov 14, 2012 20:54:52 GMT -8 @qpr said:

I understand that. The Preservation Budget is money WSF has set aside for her interior upgrade which it states they already have. The grant application is for the hybrid project.

You are correct. The state set aside money for the Hyak's non propulsion work to the tune of about $15M in the 2011-2013 budget I'm actually surprised the job hasn't been advertised yet cause they have the money. The propulsion work is a seperate $10M Federal Tiger Grant.


Should they get that they would have a $25M total refit budget for the her. Although as EG and Chief note that might not be worth it/sufficient regardless since she's so tired. But if it does you could end up with a pretty efficient useful boat for 20 or so years.

If they don't get the propulsion system money from the feds I'd be inclinded to agree with chief but I might take the time to throw a little money into her to buy some time and then walk away.

[chief]

Putting 25 million state dollars into the Hyak vs building a new Olympic Class vessel in Wisconsin for 25 million state dollars?

One would last 20 years, have high fuel consumption, maintenance needs and a larger crew. The other would last 40 to 60 years and save fuel, maintenace and labor costs the entire time.

Seems like a very simple choice.

[Barnacle]

Nov 16, 2012 17:30:28 GMT -8 chief said:

Putting 25 million state dollars into the Hyak vs building a new Olympic Class vessel in Wisconsin for 25 million state dollars?

One would last 20 years, have high fuel consumption, maintenance needs and a larger crew. The other would last 40 to 60 years and save fuel, maintenace and labor costs the entire time.

Seems like a very simple choice.

1) Labor costs unknown; manning levels not yet established.
2) Maintenance costs when the vessel is 45 years old may or may not be comparable (though I concede the PLANT portion of the maintenance will be considerably less in adjusted dollars by the fact that there's only half as many components).
3) $25M in Wisconsin? 1/4 of the per-vessel cost? I'm willing to hear of it, but show me the bid.

[chief]

1. Labor costs for the 144 as compared to a Super are very predictable. Fewer decks and passengers will mean 2 fewer deck crew members and there will be 1 less engine department employee because it is a 2 engine boat modeled after the Issaquah. The reduction of three running positions equates in cost to the reduction of 10 year round employees vs a Super crew size. The savings is well over 1 million per year in operating labor.

2. Maintenance cost for the 144 will be lower than a Super year for year throughout the ship's life because of the propulsion system selected and the arrangement of the ship. Too much to relate here but the 4 engine, DC Supers are the most maintenance labor intensive ships in WSF history. They consume more Eagle Harbor time, more commercial time and need more spare ship time than any other class, by a factor of 3. There is no doubt about the maintenance question, it will save thousands in labor hours every year and use fewer maintenance materials.

3. The cost of a new ship built in Washington is 2 times the cost of what the same ship can be built for elsewhere in the country. Evidence is the recently completed Chetzemoka Class, each ship was double the price of the Island Home even though the WSF contract was 3 boat contract. Further evidence is the 3 boat Staten Island class built in Wisconsin 10 years ago. Accordingly the 130 million dollar per unit Olympic Class could be built for 65 million in a nationwide bid. The PVA documented these costs and makes the point nicely in there report

Next is federal funding which is common in the highway world and which is available to WSF (The Snohomish and Chinook were built with federal funding) If the 144 contract is bid on a nation wide basis, the state could recieve as much as 80% of federal funding. The 65 million dollar state cost would shrink to 13 million dollars of state money, 52 million would come from the feds.

So for the same amount being proposed for the Hybrid project, the state could get a brand new 144 that gets better fuel efficiency than the Hybrid project could ever return. Operating costs are over 2 million dollars less per year so the pressure to raise ticket prices is reduced. The state would not have to spend the 39 million dollars from the capital program that the preservation program states is needed by the Hyak over the next 16 years.

It is a no brainer. Lower cost ships mean a newer fleet and lower pressure on fares.

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2012 14:13:45 GMT -8 chief said:

So for the same amount being proposed for the Hybrid project, the state could get a brand new 144 that gets better fuel efficiency than the Hybrid project could ever return. Operating costs are over 2 million dollars less per year so the pressure to raise ticket prices is reduced. The state would not have to spend the 39 million dollars from the capital program that the preservation program states is needed by the Hyak over the next 16 years.

It is a no brainer. Lower cost ships mean a newer fleet and lower pressure on fares.

I can see the Hybrid project for Hyak being success. If the Hybrid project works I can see it going to the other vessels in Washington State Ferries and maybe even BC Ferries.

[Kahloke]

Nov 17, 2012 15:18:57 GMT -8 @cheese12345678 said:

I can see the Hybrid project for Hyak being success. If the Hybrid project works I can see it going to the other vessels in Washington State Ferries and maybe even BC Ferries.

Will it be a success and actually save fuel? Probably. Is it money well spent? No. As has been previously said, this is a 45 year old vessel. We will be much better off investing funds into new-builds to replace the Super Class vessels. Don't forget, Washington is also investigating LNG as a possible fuel source for its vessels, and there has been talk about equipping one of the New Olympic Class vessels with LNG. It won't be on the first two vessels, but perhaps after that.

[chief]

You don't need to put a million dollars worth of batteries on the Hyak to save fuel, drop the speed to 140 rpms and the ship will save the same amount of fuel as WSF's best estimate for the hybrid conversion.

[rusty]

With this rebuild, at least, the Hyak will be like an Elwha on steroids.

[chief]

Yes, not a good thing at all. The Hyak Hybrid and the LNG programs are the surest signs that WSF is off it's rocker.

They Olympic class is a great example of how far the decline has come in ten years. The Olympic was essentially designed ten years ago and will be a very good ship. It will be efficient and reliable.

The more recent projects are acts of desperation, a signature of the WSDOT take over.

[Barnacle]

Nov 17, 2012 14:13:45 GMT -8 chief said:

1. Labor costs for the 144 as compared to a Super are very predictable. Fewer decks and passengers will mean 2 fewer deck crew members and there will be 1 less engine department employee because it is a 2 engine boat modeled after the Issaquah. The reduction of three running positions equates in cost to the reduction of 10 year round employees vs a Super crew size. The savings is well over 1 million per year in operating labor.

I reiterate that the manning levels haven't been established by the USCG yet. I also add that there are the same number of decks as a Super, if I'm reading the drawings correctly. If I'm not, then I have no idea what that gap is between the passenger cabin and the wheelhouses. Either way, the USCG is NOT currently in a "smaller crews are okay" mood.

2. Maintenance cost for the 144 will be lower than a Super year for year throughout the ship's life because of the propulsion system selected and the arrangement of the ship. Too much to relate here but the 4 engine, DC Supers are the most maintenance labor intensive ships in WSF history. They consume more Eagle Harbor time, more commercial time and need more spare ship time than any other class, by a factor of 3. There is no doubt about the maintenance question, it will save thousands in labor hours every year and use fewer maintenance materials.

I'll give you that--upon reflection, the Supers do seem to spend more time in the yard than other boats.

3. The cost of a new ship built in Washington is 2 times the cost of what the same ship can be built for elsewhere in the country. Evidence is the recently completed Chetzemoka Class, each ship was double the price of the Island Home even though the WSF contract was 3 boat contract.

Your point is taken, but I'm also going to point out that the cost of the Kwa-di-Tabils was jacked up by the hurry-up clause. If there hadn't been the 18-month delivery requirement, the cost would've been less. (We won't go into the daft requirement from Senator Haugen insisting that the houses be aluminum so her district could get a chunk of the work.)

I'm not against a little healthy competition on the bidding process; far from it.

[Barnacle]

Nov 17, 2012 15:45:14 GMT -8 chief said:

You don't need to put a million dollars worth of batteries on the Hyak to save fuel, drop the speed to 140 rpms and the ship will save the same amount of fuel as WSF's best estimate for the hybrid conversion.

We already did. It's been running at 140 rpm for a few years now.

And the Olympic class design has been around in one form or another since 1977. It is the design put forth from Spaulding that was eventually nixed and replaced with the Evergreens-on-steroids that we call the Issaquah class.

[chokai]

Nov 17, 2012 14:13:45 GMT -8 chief said:

3. The cost of a new ship built in Washington is 2 times the cost of what the same ship can be built for elsewhere in the country. Evidence is the recently completed Chetzemoka Class, each ship was double the price of the Island Home even though the WSF contract was 3 boat contract. Further evidence is the 3 boat Staten Island class built in Wisconsin 10 years ago. Accordingly the 130 million dollar per unit Olympic Class could be built for 65 million in a nationwide bid. The PVA documented these costs and makes the point nicely in there report

That is a 2003 bid vs a 2010 price so you can't compare Island Home and the KdTs without taking into account. Over that period inflation totalled 20% and global steel and aluminium prices had more than doubled. What you need to do to get a truely accurate feel is find the materials cost for the boats and then take into account those two things. I've done the math for the inflation alone before and posted it on this forum and came out with something more akin to 50% not 2 times.

You base comparison prices for the KdTs should be 61M 2010 dollars which splits Salish and Kennewick's price weighted slightly to Salish. Island Home is about 39M in 2008 - 2010 dollars. Chetzemoka is an abberation. That doesn't take into account any tweaking due to the specific material cost changes though that will be somewhat contained in the inflation rate.